/tg/Station 13

TO START: I am not upset that heads start with a concealable weak stun, I want them removed and the stun ability given BACK to flashes.

AND HERE'S WHY:
At first, all the heads carried around flashes. They were convenient and useful stuns, maybe a little too convenient considering the blind on top of being floored kept the target from preparing too good of a retaliation strategy until he could see the screen again. Flashes were common with workable hard counters (sunglasses in maint/cargo) and because of them being commonly snagged, an entire gamemode's "stealthy" approach to conversion involved a flash.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/5036
Then this happened. Okay, cool! Heads get a special tool to knock some asshole on his asshole if he has sunglasses, and you won't burn your bulb out. Okay I guess, well received.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/5092
Then this happened, using the addition of telebatons as the reasoning.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/5925
"I just realized literally nobody uses a flash now because of telebatons, lets buff it. But just a little."

Now that nobody carries a flash, (Why would they? The telebaton actually stuns and doesn't run out.) there's suddenly a huge outcry about borgs being overpowered.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/6343 remove secborg
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/7390 "Your operating under the assumption that the entire crew is suddenly armed with Flashes" Well, they sort of were until they weren't useful against humans anymore.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/7793 remove secborg
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/10545 secborg players are shit
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/11447 The comments section mostly.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/11454 remove secborg
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/15336 "There's no counter for borgs!" Except for flashes nobody carries anymore.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/15812 remove secborg

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18632 Here's my favorite. "Nerfs flashes some more"
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18865 "Whoops that was an awful idea"
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19370 "Oh god please carry flashes theres so many borgs look I even DOUBLED the effectiveness on borgs only"

>jughu commented on Jul 18
>first they complain it being OP as fuck
>now they complain it be weak as fuck
>make up your minds reee

There's dozens more PRs like this, more involving general AI nerfs and silicon changes to make them "weaker" ever since. Am I crazy for thinking this long tirade against silicons is caused directly by a single PR to remove stuns from flashes? Probably, but it makes sense to me. When was the last time you grabbed a flash?

tl;dr
REMOVE TELEBATON
MAKE FLASHES STUN AGAIN

This isn't a plot to re-add secborgs. This is an attempt to get people to realize they had the best weapons to stop borgs all along, and to stop nerfing them.

I spoke to Saeg about this in IRC the other day, and I agree completely with his stance. It seems like it's been a long slope into the current state where flashes are only used as emergency anti-borg tools or during rev. I usually main CMO, and I like having a telebaton, but I feel like all of these changes have added a needless amount of balancing for what initially appeared to be a QOL change. Also, while I think the security cyborg removal was largely due to player issues, I think that flashes becoming less relevant, hard to find, and borderline useless in most situations has certainly contributed.

The only issue I can see with this change is a slight nerf to heads, since telebatons have no counter, while greytiders/antags can easily find sunglasses. But that seems like an issue better addressed on its own, while this string of changes have spawned a slew of issues as a result.

Buff the Pepper Spray already.

Make Flashes Great Again.

>there's no counter for borgs except EMP which is like full screen plus no aiming requirement easy-to-find bargain bin TC-wise 15~ second stun/mute/deafen/blind damage-dealing battery drain

also flashes which fuck your shit up hard and give everyone a 2-square space that is essentially a no-go zone for fear of pocket flash instant death

but yeah i agree and not really entirely because i have ulterior motives

though this will probably end up biting me in the ass if it goes anywhere because >everyone has flashes for melee only sillicons >takes 10 sillicons to overwhelm one guy with a fucking lightbulb wew

Cik wrote:though this will probably end up biting me in the ass if it goes anywhere because >everyone has flashes for melee only sillicons >takes 10 sillicons to overwhelm one guy with a fucking lightbulb wew

Hopefully we can start reverting some of the hilarious silicon nerfs if this goes somewhere so they're not stunned, deaf, mute, and blind for 15 seconds from a single flash.

I like this idea the more I think about it. As a bonus, it makes it harder for heads to murder people willy-nilly (in that they have to actually go out and find something to beat someone with).

EDIT: Plus, more flashes for our headrev friends, as a reward for killing a head.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:EDIT: Plus, more flashes for our headrev friends, as a reward for killing a head.

That too. Flashes stop being a meta breaker when the only people that use flashes are a specific type of antag.

Saegrimr wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:EDIT: Plus, more flashes for our headrev friends, as a reward for killing a head.

That too. Flashes stop being a meta breaker when the only people that use flashes are a specific type of antag.

Just about the only reason heads don't get uber rolled every single rev is because it's so obvious, rev is the one mode that doesn't need a metabuster

Shaps wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:EDIT: Plus, more flashes for our headrev friends, as a reward for killing a head.

That too. Flashes stop being a meta breaker when the only people that use flashes are a specific type of antag.

Just about the only reason heads don't get uber rolled every single rev is because it's so obvious, rev is the one mode that doesn't need a metabuster

Revs should use the pen from gangs (minus the cooldown). But that's a topic for another thread.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

Shaps wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:EDIT: Plus, more flashes for our headrev friends, as a reward for killing a head.

That too. Flashes stop being a meta breaker when the only people that use flashes are a specific type of antag.

Just about the only reason heads don't get uber rolled every single rev is because it's so obvious, rev is the one mode that doesn't need a metabuster

Revs should use the pen from gangs (minus the cooldown). But that's a topic for another thread.

I think you mean revs should get a speshul toolbox so they can channel complete and utter greytide.

No. You're all wrong. Let me repeat myself: Homogenization is bad, variety is good. Leave telebatons. Buff Flash aoe move stutter. Buff pepper spray to blind more and make it go through glasses and helmets. There, I solved your problems. Everything is viable, everything has its specialized use.

its funny because you can literally stunlock and drag someone all the way from medbay to sec with them only having the narrowest chance of escape

Edit: what im saying is i agree

Bring Back Flash Stuns 2016/2017

TehPear wrote:Bring Back Flash Stuns 2016/2017

yes

tbh i was never sure why flash stunning was removed in the first place. they even had the burnout mechanic to prevent infinite easy chainstunning.

very good and well researched OP by saeg, i can definitely get behind this.

I'm behind this because every head should not have a hard stun that can beat just about anything.

As annoying as the old flashes were I'd be happy to see this come back, batons just have no counters and can perma stun indefinitely. For the captain or HoS they made sense, for everyone else it was just why are these even here?

Course if we do this I predict borg flashes getting nerfed some how cause god forbid we allow a borg to shutdown a shitter without breaking its laws and beating them to death.

Then rebalance the batons instead of getting rid of them. Make the stun don't last enough to cuff and don't overlap cooldown.

What are you people talking about, telebatons stun literally just long enough to chainstun, and I constantly see people worm out of them whether it's due to momentary lag, misclicks while dragging someone, or someone having any antistun chem in their system, including the ever so humble nicotine. Telebatons can only be relied upon in 1v1 combat and goes to shit when anyone else joins the fray, heads of staff are totally justified in having a robust method of self defense

Shaps wrote:heads of staff are totally justified in having a robust method of self defense

Yeah, old flashes.

it's actually kind of startling how much resulted from one PR

was there even a good reason to nerf them in the first place?

hadn't they been a thing forever before that with no complaints?

Lumbermancer wrote:Then rebalance the batons instead of getting rid of them. Make the stun don't last enough to cuff and don't overlap cooldown.

Wait... They last long enough for cuffing? I always thought that the batons are only good for dragging people out of your department

if you have the cuffs in your other hand and hotkey over, you have a second or two to spare to cuff them last I used one. They are ideal for shadowlings and the like.

As for @CIk, they got nerfed because someone decided stuns are bad, i ded plz nerfed them into the ground and then freaked the hell out when they failed to consider almost a decade of balance that had already been put in place and built around the relationship between this item and the various jobs.

*My enforcement of research soveriegnty senses were tingling.*

> Actual arguement - A buff for flashes would require a rebalance of robotics given that they can produce them by the assload and get 9/10 free access to R&D, that is unless you give the RD a e-gun which would be a worthwhile compromise.

> Telebatons have already been nerfed to the ground one before when they removed cosecutive chain stunning, throwing the pendulum in favour of flashes, you upset the balance instead of looking to create a stable compromise, a buff to flashes in itself would probably counter telebatons given that roboticist head revs are scary sleeper agents and a RD's nightmare.

As far as head weapons goes, Flashes are paper, eguns are scissors and telebatons are rock in a perpetual circlejerk of cancelling each other out (its more like garden shears but if you get disarmed with a concealed/non concealed telebaton or flash its over for you.)

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
*My enforcement of research soveriegnty senses were tingling.*

> Actual arguement - A buff for flashes would require a rebalance of robotics given that they can produce them by the assload and get 9/10 free access to R&D, that is unless you give the RD a e-gun which would be a worthwhile compromise.

> Telebatons have already been nerfed to the ground one before when they removed cosecutive chain stunning, throwing the pendulum in favour of flashes, you upset the balance instead of looking to create a stable compromise, a buff to flashes in itself would probably counter telebatons given that roboticist head revs are scary sleeper agents and a RD's nightmare.

As far as head weapons goes, Flashes are paper, eguns are scissors and telebatons are rock in a perpetual circlejerk of cancelling each other out (its more like garden shears but if you get disarmed with a concealed/non concealed telebaton or flash its over for you.)

Honestly, RD is a tricky scenario due to the readily available welding equipment in the department. Robo gets two pieces of welding equipment and RnD gets two as well. So all in all most rounds the whole department can have flash protection if they're willing to see less, but I don't think giving the RD an actual e-gun makes a whole lot of sense if balance is your main argument.

Frankly it seems like there isn't a middle ground between telebatons and flashes, telebatons are bullshit in the right hands since you can perpetually knockdown(READ: Stun) if you're fast enough and flashes are incredibly common and like Fwoosh said, easy to mass produce, plus easily shielded but that actually makes them a better fit for the "middle ground buff" as self-defense weapons since shielding will be common YET more sought after. Obviously, a flash isn't going to stop the master criminal but, the fact of the matter is that in a game where stun is king Telebatons are too far. And I won't even cover when the telebaton falls into the wrong hands.

Let me give some scenarios where a guy breaks into research and accosts the RD: Honestly, Scenario #2 to me seems the fairest given that you would need to prepare to handle a head/traitor and on the other hand being a traitorhead wouldn't automatically give you a robust as fuck weapon. Frankly, it would even the playing field between heads and common folk. You could argue that since they're heads they deserve better defense but if you can't figure out a defense weapon from your department as one of the heads then that's mostly on you. I mean it's easy to come up with something for all of them, including stuns, especially if you're familiar with your department. I'm sure there's some stuff I forgot though.

The only suprising thing here is it took 10,000 pr's to remove secborgs, so we should see them reenabled in another 10,000 right?

oranges wrote:The only suprising thing here is it took 10,000 pr's to remove secborgs, so we should see them reenabled in another 10,000 right?

or how about RIGHT NOW
if someone opens a pr for it

Armhulen wrote:

oranges wrote:The only suprising thing here is it took 10,000 pr's to remove secborgs, so we should see them reenabled in another 10,000 right?

or how about RIGHT NOW
if someone opens a pr for it

Return old flashes first before you do that so people can't cry about nobody carrying flashes to deal with borgs.

Can definitely see where Saeg's coming from. When the only reason to carry a flash is "just in case" you need to fight a borg 'cause they're crap for literally any other purpose, the majority of antags have access to far more effective means of wrecking borgs by way of EMPs, and "just in case" prepping for every possible eventuality (especially rogue silicons, see the plasma valve) is frowned upon as powergamey, there's no reason to carry a flash until you know the borgs are rogue.

Screemonster wrote:Can definitely see where Saeg's coming from. When the only reason to carry a flash is "just in case" you need to fight a borg 'cause they're crap for literally any other purpose, the majority of antags have access to far more effective means of wrecking borgs by way of EMPs, and "just in case" prepping for every possible eventuality (especially rogue silicons, see the plasma valve) is frowned upon as powergamey, there's no reason to carry a flash until you know the borgs are rogue.

When Alan plays sec, he carries a flash because "It's standard gear". He also carries pepper spray.

Traitor borgs are to be expected but usually the incursion is easier to handle by catching the creep/AI who did it and usually that involves a stun(baton/or a telebaton) or pepperspray. Pepperspray when used right is immensely effective, wheras a telebaton has the critical flaw in which you can be disarmed once = instantly turned on you.

Drop your flash? (or had your arm sliced of by a borg but not in crit yet?) just pull another disposable flash out. The key word here is "disposable" flash, its just a bit of junk hardware not a sec industrial mindwipe like saigmr's moving for, its literally just a headlight no different to a car lightbulb attached to a battery, some movement wires, a bit of motherboard junk and some wheels stuck to a little brain in a case.

If anything a combat flash is the new strobe shield item, and if you really want to make combat grade flashes, go order them from cargo (flashes with pins) by making your own type or something via a PR

FantasticFwoosh wrote:not a sec industrial mindwipe like saigmr's moving for

I'm not moving for anything but for flashes to be returned how they were for a long time before the anti-stun crusade just moved it to a completely different item for no real reason.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Traitor borgs are to be expected but usually the incursion is easier to handle by catching the creep/AI who did it and usually that involves a stun(baton/or a telebaton) or pepperspray. Pepperspray when used right is immensely effective, wheras a telebaton has the critical flaw in which you can be disarmed once = instantly turned on you.

Drop your flash? (or had your arm sliced of by a borg but not in crit yet?) just pull another disposable flash out. The key word here is "disposable" flash, its just a bit of junk hardware not a sec industrial mindwipe like saigmr's moving for, its literally just a headlight no different to a car lightbulb attached to a battery, some movement wires, a bit of motherboard junk and some wheels stuck to a little brain in a case.

If anything a combat flash is the new strobe shield item, and if you really want to make combat grade flashes, go order them from cargo (flashes with pins) by making your own type or something via a PR

Because this mentality of 'Only Sec and Traitors should get stuns' is healthy and gives crew non-lethal alternatives to conflicts.

Cik wrote:it's actually kind of startling how much resulted from one PR

was there even a good reason to nerf them in the first place?

hadn't they been a thing forever before that with no complaints?

A half hearted stab at removing stuns while leaving in other stuns. Unfinished work, much like the rest of our codebase.

Also the real unintended spiral of powercreep and then removal was lowering human runspeed, which made secborgs as fast as humans.

can we get stun gloves and bad code back too?

cocothegogo wrote:can we get stun gloves and bad code back too?

Good meme, what makes the baton better in the realm of moving away from stun-based combat vs something disposable that has hard counters and limited uses?

Saegrimr wrote:

cocothegogo wrote:can we get stun gloves and bad code back too?

Good meme, what makes the baton better in the realm of moving away from stun-based combat vs something disposable that has hard counters and limited uses?

biggest problem with ss13 is all these new things are added and things end up getting neglected, all the good games have something in common in the way that when there is a weapon or an item added they are integrated well by coding in counters or actually have it work with the rest of the items in the game I think it's called balanced

the problem is ss13 coders are not game developers and they just RECKLESSLY DISREGARD!!!! and add things that change the dynamic of the game

my opinion is that we should remove flashes as it brings the array of items down that old saying said less = more? but what do i know?

cocothegogo wrote:my opinion is that we should remove flashes as it brings the array of items down that old saying said less = more? but what do i know?

The flash essentially was split into two items, so it would make more sense to me to remove that second item seeing as the flash itself has more utility than just the baton.

The other way around would be having to replace them with something else in constructions that require one, turning the amount of removed items to zero.

hahahaha fuck i wrote flashes instead of batons!!

Oppose, because

a) Telebatons are a interesting, unique item to delineate head of staff from all other crew members
b) They have counters/aren't a guaranteed permastun (may need some tweaking to stop people from cuffing with them)
c) They provide a non-lethal means of control for individual staff members that doesn't escalate conflict to lethal damage as soon as a relatively common item (sunglasses) is acquired by a intruder.
d) Give people other reasons to carry flashes. Those motherfuckers are literally printable out of a unhacked (?) autolathe for gods sake. Maybe make it so you can flash a camera and disable a camera for 30~ seconds without leaving fingerprints on it. Maybe make it so flashing a door is part of hacking it. There are lots of way to increase flash carrying without removing a neat piece of gear.
e) Stop encouraging the use of AoE, no recourse or resist stuns on silicons you shits aghhhhhhh they already have like 18 ways in which you can fuck them up from EMPs to blowing them on the console to just shooting them to death holy shit they have no hard stuns unless hacked and even then they're only melee stuns STOP BEING SHIT AT FIGHTING

Arianya wrote:Oppose, because

a) Telebatons are a interesting, unique item to delineate head of staff from all other crew members

A spring loaded metal beat stick is more interesting than the Men in Black Neuralyzer?

b) They have counters/aren't a guaranteed permastun (may need some tweaking to stop people from cuffing with them)

What counters? Aside from drinking fuck tuns of coffee, getting hard and dangerous to use chems like meth, or antag only options like adrenline implants or being a changeling, batons don't have counters. At least with flashes sunglasses and welding equipment (to include the welding implant) you could prepare and work against it. With a baton you just can hope you disarm them quick enough or they fuck up.

c) They provide a non-lethal means of control for individual staff members that doesn't escalate conflict to lethal damage as soon as a relatively common item (sunglasses) is acquired by a intruder.

Sunglasses aren't especially common and there is at most 6 pair on the station unless you are counting SecHUDs. Odds are if someone planned far enough ahead to get sunglasses before causing hijinks or fucking with your department then there is already an escalating conflict going on.

d) Give people other reasons to carry flashes. Those motherfuckers are literally printable out of a unhacked (?) autolathe for gods sake. Maybe make it so you can flash a camera and disable a camera for 30~ seconds without leaving fingerprints on it. Maybe make it so flashing a door is part of hacking it. There are lots of way to increase flash carrying without removing a neat piece of gear.

First off, Flashes can only be printed from Robotics Exosuit Printers, and require research to unlock. As stated above, flashes are based of the MIB Neuralyzer as it starts so having them stun/stupefy people actually works for the reference.

e) Stop encouraging the use of AoE, no recourse or resist stuns on silicons you shits aghhhhhhh they already have like 18 ways in which you can fuck them up from EMPs to blowing them on the console to just shooting them to death holy shit they have no hard stuns unless hacked and even then they're only melee stuns STOP BEING SHIT AT FIGHTING

While agree that flashes need to be toned down vs borgs, they were not initially an AoE stun but an AoE confuse with a directed stun if you got their sprite. Why that got changed is beyond me but at least having Flashes back into common use for stunning crew should be a reason to nerf their effectiveness against silicons to at most what they do to carbons.

if you guys think a 3 second stun that can only keep one person down and can easily be disarmed is "completely uncounterable", you must have a fucking anyeurism anytime you see literally any of the other weapons in the game

Davidchan wrote:

Arianya wrote:Oppose, because

a) Telebatons are a interesting, unique item to delineate head of staff from all other crew members

A spring loaded metal beat stick is more interesting than the Men in Black Neuralyzer?

How can you say "spring loaded metal beat stick" without realizing how awesome that sounds.

Regardless, having a beatstick with a audible "Your ass is about to get whooped, son" is way more fun as a head then "I have this baby flashbang"

Also, while flashes might be based on Neuralyzers they neither look as cool as Neuralyzers nor have any effect similar to them other then flashing brightly.

b) They have counters/aren't a guaranteed permastun (may need some tweaking to stop people from cuffing with them)

What counters? Aside from drinking fuck tuns of coffee, getting hard and dangerous to use chems like meth, or antag only options like adrenline implants or being a changeling, batons don't have counters. At least with flashes sunglasses and welding equipment (to include the welding implant) you could prepare and work against it. With a baton you just can hope you disarm them quick enough or they fuck up.

Nicotine, bringing a friend, being robust enough to disarm while avoiding getting hit (flashes have AoE), any kind of ranged stun. Some of these overlap with flashes' counters but still.

c) They provide a non-lethal means of control for individual staff members that doesn't escalate conflict to lethal damage as soon as a relatively common item (sunglasses) is acquired by a intruder.

Sunglasses aren't especially common and there is at most 6 pair on the station unless you are counting SecHUDs. Odds are if someone planned far enough ahead to get sunglasses before causing hijinks or fucking with your department then there is already an escalating conflict going on.

As you yourself noted, welding equipment also works as a counter, as do welding eye implants and several hardsuits which have protection against it with the helmet up.

And the point still stands that if the head's non-lethal option(s) are countered their only options are to run for sec (potentially leaving a intruder in their department) or escalate to lethals.

This is opinion as opposed to fact, but I don't feel like you should ever be able to trespass on a department without fearing the wrath of the head of department. In the real world this would be in how they can fuck up your career/inflict punishments on you, in SS13 its in the way that they can whoop your ass.

d) Give people other reasons to carry flashes. Those motherfuckers are literally printable out of a unhacked (?) autolathe for gods sake. Maybe make it so you can flash a camera and disable a camera for 30~ seconds without leaving fingerprints on it. Maybe make it so flashing a door is part of hacking it. There are lots of way to increase flash carrying without removing a neat piece of gear.

First off, Flashes can only be printed from Robotics Exosuit Printers, and require research to unlock. As stated above, flashes are based of the MIB Neuralyzer as it starts so having them stun/stupefy people actually works for the reference.

Then a quick and easy way to get people carrying more flashes is to put them into (probably hacked) autolathes and remove their research req. I'm not a fan of standard equipment for most of the station being research locked anyway.

Also old flash stuns aren't really comparable to Neuralyzers, if anything the present flash stun is more like them, minus the "staring off into space" aspect.

e) Stop encouraging the use of AoE, no recourse or resist stuns on silicons you shits aghhhhhhh they already have like 18 ways in which you can fuck them up from EMPs to blowing them on the console to just shooting them to death holy shit they have no hard stuns unless hacked and even then they're only melee stuns STOP BEING SHIT AT FIGHTING

While agree that flashes need to be toned down vs borgs, they were not initially an AoE stun but an AoE confuse with a directed stun if you got their sprite. Why that got changed is beyond me but at least having Flashes back into common use for stunning crew should be a reason to nerf their effectiveness against silicons to at most what they do to carbons.

I'm not against flashes being back to their normal carbon mob stuns, I'm more against replacing telebatons with them. As noted, there are other ways to make them more common among staff.

Shaps wrote:if you guys think a 3 second stun that can only keep one person down and can easily be disarmed is "completely uncounterable", you must have a fucking anyeurism anytime you see literally any of the other weapons in the game

While I still think removing telebatons and fixing flashes would be cool, this is a very valid post. Telebatons aren't super strong, and them being strong isn't why they're being proposed for removal. I encourage you guys to reread the OP.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Shaps wrote:if you guys think a 3 second stun that can only keep one person down and can easily be disarmed is "completely uncounterable", you must have a fucking anyeurism anytime you see literally any of the other weapons in the game

While I still think removing telebatons and fixing flashes would be cool, this is a very valid post. Telebatons aren't super strong, and them being strong isn't why they're being proposed for removal. I encourage you guys to reread the OP.

My point is less balance and more aesthetic sense/there being better ways to raise flash usage.

Arianya wrote:no recourse or resist stuns on silicons you shits aghhhhhhh they already have like 18 ways in which you can fuck them up from EMPs to blowing them on the console to just shooting them to death holy shit they have no hard stuns unless hacked and even then they're only melee stuns STOP BEING SHIT AT FIGHTING

Yeah see check that big train of pull requests buffing flashes effectiveness against silicons and all the silicon nerfs ever since flashes stopped being carried because "N-NO COUNTERS!"

Lets start working our way backwards and reverting all this dumb shit.

I think the problem is the fact it's infinite, give heads stun batons

cocothegogo wrote:I think the problem is the fact it's infinite, give heads stun batons

This. A telebaton is infinite stun, never requires recharge or replacement. Literally every other stun item in the game has a set limit to how many stuns it can dish out in a given period. Further more it's possible to pre-emptively deplete flashes, tasers and stun batons with EMP/Ion shots. Nothing stops the beatstick.

This makes the beatstick nice.
Remember when dets had teles?