Change Detective. Remove Lawyer

[WarbossLincoln]

So I had this idea that came out of people talking about the issues with antag detectives, and detectives in general.

The basis of the idea is to remove the job "Detective" and replace it with "Investigator" or "Private Eye". The big change would be one of sec policy and getting sec to understand it.

The Detective will no longer be a real member of security and will have no authority to arrest people. That's supposed to be the idea now, but one of the big complaints is that Detectives just act like normal officers most of the time. Under this change sec would treat the new PI job as a civilian, and therefore vigilante if they go after criminals, just like they would an assistant. So if the PI tried to enforce the law and arrest people over normal BS crime, officers should brig him. If he kills some obvious traitor of course they wouldn't, just like an assistant. No one on /tg/ would arrest any player for killing some dude who pulled a revolver.

The PI would be a third party civilian who would use their scanner to help officers figure out criminals just like the Detective. In this idea we would also remove the Lawyer job, and his 'responsibilities' would go to the PI. The lawyer is always memed as being completely ignored, we don't really need the job. In the case that a prisoner needs someone to stick up for them and try to reason with security, the PI could also do that.

Another change to the class would be adding a fax machine to centcomm to his office. Similar to IAA agents on other servers. We would kinda include their duties to the PI. The PI could monitor each department for signs of trouble, sabotage, major fuck ups, etc. He could report to the dept head, or Captain if necessary. In extreme cases Centcomm to see if the admins want to do anything IC.

The PI could also take requests from crew to investigate issues, grievances, etc.

• PI only has lawyer level access to sec. I'm not sure if they have more than this now. They can get into the main area of the brig, the evidence room, interrogation.
• PI gains access to the main room of each department. The level of access that department specific sec officers have(medbay front door, cargo main room, RD main hallway, etc) That way he can check in on the goings on of all the departments.
• Mapping Change. The PI won't have his office directly attached to the Brig, to further separate them. He should have a public facing office with a public area. Maybe a small area in front with a desk and windoor. Kinda like the captain's office on Meta but with public front doors. On Box the office is already outside of the brig, but on Meta it would need to be moved. Conveniently it's right above the lawyer's office. Turn the lawyer's office into the PI's, and the Detective's old office into another drunk tank. Image below.

The biggest change to make this work would be to get SEC to treat the PI as a civilian.

• The Detective validhunts too much. Sec would be encouraged to stop him IC if he's being a vigilante, outside of obvious traitors.
• The Detective acts like a regular sec officer. The warden/officers shouldn't give the PI any equipment unless it's an emergency. PI has no authority to arrest someone. Sec should handle that IC.
• The Detective doesn't have a lot to do. Evidence is often not used. The goal here would be to also give the PI more things to do. Now he has the Lawyer's and a little of IAA jobs to do.

What do you guys think? Any ideas? I don't think this would take much effort to code or map. Might be worth testing.

[Cobby]

The reason why det is mini-sec is because he's typically the only officer [sans the warden who's goal is to defend the brig, not to catch perps].

If you want to tackle the "Det is minisec" issue, you need to encourage people to play sec rather than to make sectective impossible.

[ThanatosRa]

Why is it so hard to compromise? It's either, "MAKE SEC ALL POWERFUL" or "NERF SEC TO USELESSNESS, GRAY TIDE FOREVER".

[Luke Cox]

I can get behind this. Sec is compensated for losing the detective by not having lawyers to fuck with them. I've always wanted the detective to be more removed from security, and lawyers have always been kinda dumb anyways.

[Wyzack]

Makes the detective less dirty Harry and more Sam spade. Might be cool, might be shit. My opinions on the matter have changed somewhat, I would not be against trialing antag sec again as well

[CPTANT]

Why is it so hard to compromise? It's either, "MAKE SEC ALL POWERFUL" or "NERF SEC TO USELESSNESS, GRAY TIDE FOREVER".

Greytide has been dead for ages.

[Zilenan91]

So long as both of these Private Investigators still have a detective gun or some equivalent then I'd be fine with them. It'd be killing the role if the gun was removed.


Alternatively we could keep the Detective as he is now but remove his sec headsets and brig access so he's actually a loose cannon rather than a sec officer with shit access as he is currently.

[ThanatosRa]

Why is it so hard to compromise? It's either, "MAKE SEC ALL POWERFUL" or "NERF SEC TO USELESSNESS, GRAY TIDE FOREVER".

Greytide has been dead for ages.

That doesn't invalidate my statement. It just felt like the mindset to me.

[Luke Cox]

Ideally, I'd like to see crew-sided detectives as loose cannon vigilantes and antag detectives as an extremely subversive force to security.

[WarbossLincoln]

So long as both of these Private Investigators still have a detective gun or some equivalent then I'd be fine with them. It'd be killing the role if the gun was removed.

Yeh, his gear would stay the same

[Luke Cox]

Honestly, I think the Mars Special should be buffed

[TheNightingale]

Renovated office; the north side is for forensics and 'Detective' work, and the south side for trials and 'Lawyer' work. The funny-looking printer on the east wall (where the light is) can fax Central Command, and the shared morgue area has a medical console for records access (repositioned from the Detective's side to expand the desk a little). There's another PI locker in there, of course, as well as a spare camera.

[Zilenan91]

That looks great, though the windows between them look kinda bad with the floors. You'd need someone to poke around in job code to rename some things but this is totally workable.

[Steelpoint]

As much as I personally dislike the snowflake status of the Detective Antag I think losing the Detective as a Security official would be a negative thing.

This is due to the Detective being one of the more popular Security roles, and in lower population rounds this can lead to the Detective being one of the only Security personal on station, or even on mid pop.

Perhaps going with Malks idea of also adding a new Security job of a Security Sergeant who has ranking authority over Security Officers, has a nicer hat and also has a personal forensics scanner, or even just giving the scanner to the armory.

Forensics is a underused gameplay mechanic to begin with, due to how many crimes don't need it or the niche usage of it. Losing out of forensics to a third party civilian would make forensics even less valuable to security.

[Luke Cox]

I'm not sure how I feel about ranked security officers, because the Warden already acts as a sergeant unofficially. It's pretty rare to actually get a department that's big enough to micro-manage. Expanding forensics I can completely get behind though.

[Steelpoint]

Expanding forensics as a mechanic would be nice but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

While I'm not against branching the Detective into a non-security affiliated role (He can keep his pistol as far as I care) but I still firmly belive that one way or another Security needs access to a forensics scanner.

It makes no logical sense why a dedicated security force would lack access to forensics equipment.

[Anonmare]

Would be nice if there was expanded forensic investigation. Like being able to perform autopsies to get an idea of what killed someone, check their bodies for anyone else's prints/fibres or examine blood with a mass spectrometer (I did this once to catch a Changeling).

[Luke Cox]

Would be nice if there was expanded forensic investigation. Like being able to perform autopsies to get an idea of what killed someone, check their bodies for anyone else's prints/fibres or examine blood with a mass spectrometer (I did this once to catch a Changeling).

I don't know how feasible this would be code-wise, the detective could be given tools to perform autopsies and determine things like

• If killed with brute damage, whether they were bludgeoned, cut, or stabbed to death (most tools bludgeon, knives and screwdrivers stab, blades cut)
• If shot, what kinds of bullets (embedded bullets when)
• If poisoned, the chemical used
• Other clues to the manner of death (different traitor items give different descriptions)

[Scott]

>shitposting

Here's some shitposting for you:

Security needs one of every tool, machine and computer available on the station.

[CPTANT]

Expanding forensics as a mechanic would be nice but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

While I'm not against branching the Detective into a non-security affiliated role (He can keep his pistol as far as I care) but I still firmly belive that one way or another Security needs access to a forensics scanner.

It makes no logical sense why a dedicated security force would lack access to forensics equipment.

Giving the warden a forensic scanner in his office would indeed be a good first step.

A stationary item scanner would perhaps also be nice, gets more information out of something, but isn't portable.

[Scott]

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

[Scott]

Do you people play this game for the redtext or to roleplay and have fun? Answer me this.

[CPTANT]

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

Medbay already has multiple space cleaners. OHW NO NOW THE JANITOR IS OBSOLETE.


Forensics is an interesting and underused mechanic. Promoting it is NOT a bad thing, not for balance and not for roleplay.

[Scott]

The entire reason the Detective role exists is to use the forensic scanner.

Stop posting any time.

[CPTANT]

The entire reason the Detective role exists is to use the forensic scanner.

lolz look at me shitposting

No, the forensic scanner is just a tool he uses. He can easily get more advanced tools like autopsy scanners or other things like already suggested in this thread.

[Scott]

No he cannot easily get any new shit because that needs to actually be made first.

[CPTANT]

No he cannot easily get any new shit because that needs to actually be made first.

If it was made we wouldn't be talking in the ideas forum now would we?

[Scott]

Giving the warden a forensic scanner in his office would indeed be a good first step.

This is what you said, meaning you want to make the detective redundant NOW and fix it later.

[CPTANT]

Giving the warden a forensic scanner in his office would indeed be a good first step.

This is what you said, meaning you want to make the detective redundant NOW and fix it later.

It's not like every HoS interested in forensics just grabs the spare one from the detective's locker anyway.

So yeah, if you think that makes you redundant then you already are.

[Scott]

I don't care if you do that as HoS, it doesn't invalidate keeping the Detective as the sole owner of the forensic scanner to give the role a purpose game wise.

[Bawhoppennn]

this is one of the shittest ideas I've seen in awhile

[Steelpoint]

I also still think a better compromise is splitting the Detective into two rolls, one as a Private Investigator who is a non-sec affiliated Civilian (he can keep his gun) and a Forensics Specialist who is a part of Security and has access to a array of forensic tools, some of which we already have in game like the Scanner, a Civilian Remote Door Control and Security Tape for starters.

[Scott]

That's not a compromise at all, that is effectively reverting Detective antag.

[TheNightingale]

Assuming there are two PI lockers and two PIs, that means four forensic scanners. It's not like Security can't just ask for one.
Expanding forensics would help, though, just so you can't do everything investigation-related with a scanner. How about this (pretty sure this is how Bay works)?:
* Scanning something with a forensic scanner gives a scanner report (encrypted, containing details on prints, fibres or DNA).
* Insert the scanner report into another machine (microscope?) in the PI's Office to turn it into a readable report, with clear fibres and print/DNA hashes.
* Check the prints and DNA against the records console.

This way, all forensic investigations have to go through the PI; and a traitor can blow up the microscope to erase evidence of their crimes until R&D builds a new one. If Security cares enough to have another microscope built in Sec, they can perform their own investigations if they get their hands on a forensic scanner.

[WarbossLincoln]

Would be nice if there was expanded forensic investigation. Like being able to perform autopsies to get an idea of what killed someone, check their bodies for anyone else's prints/fibres or examine blood with a mass spectrometer (I did this once to catch a Changeling).

I don't know how feasible this would be code-wise, the detective could be given tools to perform autopsies and determine things like

• If killed with brute damage, whether they were bludgeoned, cut, or stabbed to death (most tools bludgeon, knives and screwdrivers stab, blades cut)
• If shot, what kinds of bullets (embedded bullets when)
• If poisoned, the chemical used
• Other clues to the manner of death (different traitor items give different descriptions)

I think this exists on other code bases.

Giving the warden a forensic scanner in his office would indeed be a good first step.

This is what you said, meaning you want to make the detective redundant NOW and fix it later.

It's not like every HoS interested in forensics just grabs the spare one from the detective's locker anyway.

So yeah, if you think that makes you redundant then you already are.

That's one of the ideas behind removing him from sec. Half the time if forensics are needed the detective is ignored cause the HOS can just walk in and take the spare scanner. Having anyone start with a scanner in their office other than the detective devalues him even more.



The problem with expanding forensics is how rarely it's needed. Most killers are either very stealthy(always have gloves, change clothes often, etc), or very loud murderboners and there are lots of witnesses.

[EndgamerAzari]

lawyers have always been kinda dumb anyways.

N...nuh-UH.

[Malkevin]

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

>shitposting

Here's some shitposting for you:

Security needs one of every tool, machine and computer available on the station.

>Being such a new fag you don't know of the days when every sec PDA had a fingerprint scanner.

[WarbossLincoln]

>Being such a new fag you don't know of the days when every sec PDA had a fingerprint scanner.

lol, I'm newer than that. I don't remember that. I think I started playing a couple years ago, mostly NOX. Then quit and came back like 6 months ago or something, mostly on /tg/.

[Scott]

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

And every department needs a mop and some space cleaner so we can remove the janitor, right?

>shitposting

Here's some shitposting for you:

Security needs one of every tool, machine and computer available on the station.

>Being such a new fag you don't know of the days when every sec PDA had a fingerprint scanner.

And now we have a job that has exclusive access to that equipment and it forces more interaction between players, which is good.

[Malkevin]

>'now'
>implying the detective didn't exist in ye olde days on tg and didn't have a fingerprint scanner that was only slightly better than an officer's pda.

[BeeSting12]

I'm relatively new to ss13, only joined in January. I half support this idea and half don't. I like the part of lawyers being removed, not like any trials ever happen anyway. (The one time I tried having a trial as a captain, the HoS went all loose cannon and lasered the antag because MUH VALIDS!) However, often, the detective is the only or one of the only security team members, even though he is technically not a part of sec. I support him getting basic departmental access. It's a pain in the tail to ask the AI/HoP for it. He could also take the role as a lawyer. Probably for prosecution, but if the real evidence shows the defendant is guilty, he can go for defense side. The whole PI idea is cool, but he still needs brig/cells access because he will often be the only security officer. Also, detective antag is pretty fun. I've played it some, and I usually switch my prints out with a person I don't like, or my target. Emag a door or drop a traitor item, get some "prints" on it, then frame him. Catching a real traitor on real evidence is a bonus, since you can team up or take their items for yourself. I haven't seen a decreased level in trust for the detective from the general population or from security, but I may be wrong. Personally, I play detective however is appropriate for the amount of sec in the round. On medium/low pop, I will generally go to calls, and give backup to the security if needed. The detective is a waste of air if he's not doing SOMETHING to stop crime when there's no forensic evidence. In high pop, I just keep my eyes and ears open and stop any nontrivial crime. While this idea is good in theory, the flaw is that him being a PI will result in vigilante justice if he doesn't have access to the cells.