Secborg replacement: Peacekeeper Borg [PR now up]

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:02 am #166119

Bottom post of the previous page:

The big problem people had with the old secborg was that they would validhunt instead of following their laws, even if law 2 required them to let criminals go

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:10 am #166124

That's one of the problems. Another problem was that peacekeeping/secborgs by design are meant to stop interesting things from happening by stopping harm and killing all conflict in the round.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:16 am #166126

By default, the AI's primary purpose is to actively prevent harm ("A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm"). Stopping harm is good, playing cop is bad. Peacekeeper is equipped to do the former, secborg was equipped to do the latter. The AI needs a borg geared towards stopping harm to do its job.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:23 am #166128

I don't care that an AI is supposed to stop harm. It doing its job isn't fun or in any way a good thing. The AI not having an army of harmyeller 9000s makes the game far more enjoyable because I quite like having something to do in a round rather than aimlessly wander the hallways since all of the antagonists died/got perma'd in 3 nanoseconds to harmyellers.

You also don't seem to get what stopping harm entails. This means that people will spam this borg and do the exact same thing as secborgs used to but worse and yet far more annoyingly. This will not be a good addition. It will actively make the game as a whole worse by making rounds more boring.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:59 am #166136

Zil, your argument makes no fucking sense

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:05 am #166137

If a borg is created, and the only purpose of said borg is to make the round more boring by validing antags/stopping interesting shit from happening then the borg should not exist.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:23 am #166142

You are correct, that is why this borg is not designed to validhunt. It is designed to break up fights and help victims escape. It physically cannot detain people.

Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:52 am

TheNightingale wrote:Why do we even have a "no Sec association" rule for the peacekeeper? Security's job on the station is literally to keep the peace; Sec gear (stuns, restraints) is designed exclusively to nonharmfully detain people.

because
1. this is a game people play to have fun
2. being associated with sec has proven to encourage them to validhunt
3. borgs, being so powerful, are very efficient at validhunting
4. when people validhunt the game is less fun
5. therefore, borgs make the game less fun when they validhunt
6. therefore, remove sec association to discourage borgs from validhunting

unfortunately it turns out that that doesn't work and people still validhunted as secborg instead of "keeping the peace" as you borgcucks keep saying, so they got the axe. as a result, the game is more fun now.

the more you know~~

TheNightingale · Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:04 am

People will validhunt however they can; engiborgs with RCDs to wall potential traitors in will be the new meta. Here's an idea - what if we removed validhunters instead?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:10 am #166158

Luke Cox wrote:The big problem people had with the old secborg was that they would validhunt instead of following their laws, even if law 2 required them to let criminals go

How was the secborg different than the other modules that enabled it to break server rules? I don't remember any special tool for that.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:12 am #166160

They won't be the new meta though because they're fucking engiborgs just hit them with a spear, and their RCD will run out quite fast. Couldn't do that with a secborg because it had infinite disablers.

Topham · Post by **Topham** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:00 am #166172

I mean, people keep arguing for whether or not a Peacekeeper Borg would be a good idea to implement but all things considered, I really think it'd be worthwhile at least giving it a try. We've given a chance to stupider things.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:03 am #166188

TheNightingale wrote:People will validhunt however they can; engiborgs with RCDs to wall potential traitors in will be the new meta. Here's an idea - what if we removed validhunters instead?

The problem with secborg specifically designed to emulate human validhunters. I have literally never seen the scenario you just described.

ATDoop · Post by **ATDoop** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:27 am #166194

I support this idea if only because I think that big dumb egg is adorable. It should get a service borg skin where it wears a tux or something.

Topham · Post by **Topham** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:00 am #166200

ATDoop wrote:I support this idea if only because I think that big dumb egg is adorable. It should get a service borg skin where it wears a tux or something.

I mean, if we ditch the peacekeeper idea then I think we should use the assets for a hugbot module. Does nothing but go around and be warm and fuzzy and huggable.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:22 am #166207

I'm very optimistic about this working. When I was coming up with the idea, I thought about each module and asked myself "would this encourage validhunting?" and "how would I fight this as an antag?". The bola launcher can be dodged or simply resisted out of, and getting close enough to use the injector leaves you open to flashes and/or crowbars to the face. Very common eye protection completely nullifies the flash. With the total lack of law enforcement equipment and no sec hud, I can't see this thing actively pursuing anyone. Shit, an engiborg would work better for validhunting probably. There is absolutely no association with security or the old sec borgs, mechanically or thematically.

I have a feeling that peacekeeers will spend 99% of their shift following Bryce Pax around.

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:32 pm

if they are emagged do they get razor wire bolas that slice u up?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:37 pm #166239

This might have more merit if the sprites for it did not look like someone created a physical manifestation of autism and put wheels on it.

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:31 pm

please do not use "autism" or "autistic" as an insult m'dude

Jike · Post by **Jike** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:12 pm #166255

Steelpoint wrote:This might have more merit if the sprites for it did not look like someone created a physical manifestation of autism and put wheels on it.

If you mean the blue hug abomination, it is getting replaced by a safety egg which looks a lot better IMO

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:32 pm #166263

The safety egg doesn't look at all like the other borgs though, there's no unifying aesthetic between them and all the other borgs. The old one at least looked borgy, the egg looks like it comes from a Disney movie.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:01 pm #166272

Zilenan91 wrote:The safety egg doesn't look at all like the other borgs though, there's no unifying aesthetic between them and all the other borgs. The old one at least looked borgy, the egg looks like it comes from a Disney movie.

>Molesto-bot has hands - no borgs have hands
>Molesto-bot has a face - no borgs have faces, especially fucking creepy ones.

>Love-egg is round - most other borgs are rounded
>Love-egg is featureless aside from camera eyes - other borgs are featureless save for camera eyes.

You been smoking crack boy?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:02 pm #166273

It's aesthetics, not features. The egg looks like it comes straight out of Wall-E while the other borgs look like they were made in factories.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:12 pm #166274

You just never are happy, are you Zil?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:14 pm #166275

People already complain about us not having a unifying art style, but this is a bit ridiculous with the sheer difference.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:33 pm #166278

Egg sprite was made in response to that. Unlike the hugbot, it's clearly a robot.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:37 pm #166280

Yes, it is a robot. This isn't about it's robotic status, this is about a unifying aesthetic. The egg-bot looks like it was plucked from a totally different universe and put in SS13 rather than like it was actually made in the SS13 universe because of how pure white it is

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:41 pm

make the eggy pastel blue and pink

Incomptinence · Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:32 pm

Luke Cox wrote: The problem with secborg specifically designed to emulate human validhunters. I have literally never seen the scenario you just described.

I once saw engineering borgs wall in naked changeling on a space tile surrounded by walls.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:24 pm #166332

Did said engiborgs actually chase down the changeling and kill it without being ordered to do so by a human?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:30 pm #166334

I think zil has a point about Ai intervention though. People didn't hate secborgs because they did sec's job, they hated them because they stuck thier silicon boner into every violent interaction while having a bias against antags. I think people want the Ai to be an impartial third party

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:56 pm #166336

Give security lethals and encourage them to use them, THEN you'll see asimov AI's taking the side of the antag more often.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:33 pm #166344

Wyzack wrote:I think zil has a point about Ai intervention though. People didn't hate secborgs because they did sec's job, they hated them because they stuck thier silicon boner into every violent interaction while having a bias against antags. I think people want the Ai to be an impartial third party

That is true, and this borg was designed with that in mind. I wanted to give the AI some means of dealing with human on human harm other than bolting the doors and yelling for sec, but at the same time something with mechanics that encourage acting as a third party.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:34 pm #166345

Wyzack wrote:I think zil has a point about Ai intervention though. People didn't hate secborgs because they did sec's job, they hated them because they stuck thier silicon boner into every violent interaction while having a bias against antags. I think people want the Ai to be an impartial third party

It is an impartial third-party, or you wouldn't have people complaining about silicons locking down sec because they were executing prisoners.

Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:09 am

Malkevin wrote:Give security lethals and encourage them to use them, THEN you'll see asimov AI's taking the side of the antag getting subverted by the captain to enable them to validhunt more often.

TheNightingale · Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:27 am

If AIs allow themselves to be subverted, they're not doing it right. Bolt the upload at roundstart, and if the HoS wants to change your laws after you've locked down Sec for harm, they'd better have a good reason ("It's Ian's birthday, I want to upload a law making him human").

Topham · Post by **Topham** » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:55 am #166386

At this point, I'd really love to just see this borg be finished and tested before we debate things any further, as a LOT of hypotheticals and exceptions are being thrown around, but if we test the actual borg we could work with actual data.

Also, I want my damn hugbot okay

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:52 am #166397

Getting back to the original topic here, all we need are the finished egg sprites. Code-wise, it appears that this is done pending testing.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:09 pm #166634

Also I need to either make the bolas non-reusuable (for which I will need a broken bola sprite) or we can just accept that this borg can shit out a lot of bolas if it really wants to- I don't see that breaking anything.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:59 pm #166654

Drynwyn wrote:Also I need to either make the bolas non-reusuable (for which I will need a broken bola sprite) or we can just accept that this borg can shit out a lot of bolas if it really wants to- I don't see that breaking anything.

I'd rather not have greyshirts pick them up and use them to fuck with people. I'll whip up something up. If Daniel doesn't get back to us in a day or two, I'm going to go ahead and post a request in the sprites request thread for the egg style sprites

WarbossLincoln · Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:09 pm

TheNightingale wrote:If AIs allow themselves to be subverted, they're not doing it right. Bolt the upload at roundstart, and if the HoS wants to change your laws after you've locked down Sec for harm, they'd better have a good reason ("It's Ian's birthday, I want to upload a law making him human").

I want to say there's a rule against bolting the upload at round start. Like bolting the armory or toxins at round start. The captain and RD have access because they're allowed to change laws. AI isn't supposed to stop either of them from changing it's laws unless you think they're doing it just to cause harm.

Lumbermancer · Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:21 pm

cmspano wrote:I want to say there's a rule against bolting the upload at round start. Like bolting the armory or toxins at round start. The captain and RD have access because they're allowed to change laws. AI isn't supposed to stop either of them from changing it's laws unless you think they're doing it just to cause harm.

>The core and upload may be bolted without prompting or prior reason.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:26 pm #166663

Lumbermancer wrote:
cmspano wrote:I want to say there's a rule against bolting the upload at round start. Like bolting the armory or toxins at round start. The captain and RD have access because they're allowed to change laws. AI isn't supposed to stop either of them from changing it's laws unless you think they're doing it just to cause harm.
>The core and upload may be bolted without prompting or prior reason.

For once, I agree with you. Greyshirt McEmag has no business in there.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:36 pm #166666

cmspano wrote:I want to say there's a rule against bolting the upload at round start. Like bolting the armory or toxins at round start. The captain and RD have access because they're allowed to change laws. AI isn't supposed to stop either of them from changing it's laws unless you think they're doing it just to cause harm.

Personally I let the RD and Captain in without question (unless they're likely to cause harm like previously uploading a non-Human law) but anyone else has to be accompanied by either a Head of Staff or a member of Security, or a borg if all else fails.

The Clown is always allowed in

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:46 pm #166668

I generally bolt the upload and request that the Captain or RD grab another head of staff to accompany them (provided there isn't something that would make that particularly difficult.) I hate being law-obligated to validhunt, though.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:51 pm #166687

people i allow into upload

1. captains
2. research directors
3. anyone who makes a reasonable effort to appear as one of these two things

ShadowDimentio · Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:02 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:People already complain about us not having a unifying art style, but this is a bit ridiculous with the sheer difference.

I for one am shocked sprites made by several dozen different people look totally different from one-another

Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:21 pm

Drynwyn wrote:Also I need to either make the bolas non-reusuable (for which I will need a broken bola sprite) or we can just accept that this borg can shit out a lot of bolas if it really wants to- I don't see that breaking anything.

look at energy beartrap code and just copy what it does, when the thing is done being used it just qdels and flashes into sparks

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:07 am #166723

It's against the rules to bolt the core at round start, but the upload is fine.

Lumbermancer · Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:08 am

No it isn't.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:13 am #166726

Tell that to saegrimr and ShadowDimentio