/tg/Station 13

After an issue the other day in which a QM drugged a miner who got the gluttonys blessing, or whatever turns you into a morph, and then stole said item and used it, and then proceeded to come into RnD, destroy the robotics console, destroy the RD console, attack us when the miner came to kill him for stealing the gluttonys blessing in the first place, and then eventually ended up with 3 of us dead in research and him releasing the tesla also, and that's just what I saw whilst I was alive

What is allowed when you use these mining drops that turn you into these things?

We need some clear policy on it because people seem to be varied on their opinions

See this is the dumb snowflake shit miners get that allows them to just ignore the round entirely until they get the chance to self antag and completely fuck things up because they rolled miner.

Getting fat and gaining gluttony and acting out morph antag = been perfectly OK no admins care/do anything.

Kill a Drake and roll the 1/5 chance to become one= reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bwoinked

If you change yourself via the mining drops. Drakes blood, morph you are essentially agreeing by using the item thst you make yourself valid. Blood contract would simply be you are making a free for all on yourself / everyone. (Don't understand it fully).

But if you willingly change yourself you should be valid.
Same argument as changing yourself into a slime. Or a carp or whatever else.

Alipheese wrote:But if you willingly change yourself you should be valid.

The problem here is the same we've had as a rule with WGW for ages, before even that got removed because its fucking shit.

You spam on the radio to make yourself valid, you don't get to fight back.
You killed Ian and made yourself valid, you don't get to fight back.
Other servers with their valid as fuck cat people don't get to fight back.

Doing the same except making yourself an instagibbing fireball spewing complete station destroying monstrosity? Tee hee i'm valid but don't hit me or I instagib you!

It's fucking dumb.

>WGW

Malicious, annoying

>Killing Ian

Malicious, annoying

>valid cats

Dumb rule we don't have

>wanting to be a cool monster or a slime or something

Not inherently malicious, you're not a shitter for wanting to play as something exotic, and you're not a shitter for defending yourself.

A blanket "you can't fight back at all" rule would just empower the kinds of garbage players who already run up and try to murder sentient pets/xenobio monsters while they run away screaming "friendly"

Mining drops were a mistake.

Fatal wrote:After an issue the other day in which a QM drugged a miner who got the gluttonys blessing, or whatever turns you into a morph, and then stole said item and used it, and then proceeded to come into RnD, destroy the robotics console, destroy the RD console, attack us when the miner came to kill him for stealing the gluttonys blessing in the first place, and then eventually ended up with 3 of us dead in research and him releasing the tesla also, and that's just what I saw whilst I was alive

What is allowed when you use these mining drops that turn you into these things?

We need some clear policy on it because people seem to be varied on their opinions

The policy on the morph thing is clear already, you're allowed to use it and act like a morph.

The syringe has been used 8 times this month on basil, out of 140 rounds. The chances of the ruin spawning, a miner finding it, and then returning alive to use the syringe are small. At least one of those morphs I saw was a podman who walked into lava after. If you can't handle random monsters turning up every once in a while this is not a good game for you to play.

bandit wrote:Mining drops were a mistake.

What is the difference between the morph event having a chance of randomly pulling a ghost and creating a morph and the map having a random chance of loading something that can turn someone into a morph?

EDIT: Or if you mean loot in general, the difference between the geneticist/scientist/botanist/virologist/cargo tech all sitting in their workplaces farming weapons? Every job gives you "drops" and most of those jobs won't kill you in the process

Kor wrote:A blanket "you can't fight back at all" rule would just empower the kinds of garbage players who already run up and try to murder sentient pets/xenobio monsters while they run away screaming "friendly"

This is why those rules were removed entirely, now reading WGW or killing pets for no reason but to provoke people gets you straight bwoinked.

Xenobio "pets" don't get to run around and kill either unless ordered to, and if their owner isn't an antag he's the one that gets banned. Most of them are so weak that they'd die before they get a chance to retaliate anyway.

People get antag banned for walking up to revs/gangs(rip)/cults and asking to be converted, getting their implants removed to get reconverted after capture, or just ghosting after being implanted.

You've described lavaland creatures on the station as basically being a singuloose in terms of destruction when nonantags do it, and ban them accordingly. Why is a player-controlled nonantag singularity different?

If you can't handle random monsters turning up every once in a while this is not a good game for you to play.

Why the fuck do we even have antag status then? Let xenobio flood escape and and people bring megafauna to the station.

Saegrimr wrote:Xenobio "pets" don't get to run around and kill either unless ordered to

Yeah, just like the dragon.

Why the fuck do we even have antag status then? Let xenobio flood escape and and people bring megafauna to the station.

>If an antagonist/montser gets to kill someone, why not let everyone kill everyone?

>If the game spawns meteors, why can't I just hammer the button nonstop every round?

>If I can shoot one guy in Counterstrike, why not my team mates?

>If I can score a touchdown in football, why not in my own end zone?

Are you writing ridiculous strawmen to trigger me or because you actually think it's going to convince someone

Kor wrote:A blanket "you can't fight back at all" rule would just empower the kinds of garbage players who already run up and try to murder sentient pets/xenobio monsters while they run away screaming "friendly"

Pretty much this, I've had players pick a fight with mobs, get dunked on and sent packing to medbay, then arm up and come back to murder the mob who at that point was just chilling in science talking to a room full of scientists, and screamed about how it was valid when rule 1 was pointed at them. And that's before we get into the whole "bust into someone's department and pick a fight then scream your need for revenge after you lose a fight you started" thing.

Kor wrote:Yeah, just like the dragon.

Show me a slime shitting fire in the main halls and breaking down doors and i'll show you another ban appeal about to happen.

Screemonster wrote:

Kor wrote:A blanket "you can't fight back at all" rule would just empower the kinds of garbage players who already run up and try to murder sentient pets/xenobio monsters while they run away screaming "friendly"

Pretty much this, I've had players pick a fight with mobs, get dunked on and sent packing to medbay, then arm up and come back to murder the mob who at that point was just chilling in science talking to a room full of scientists, and screamed about how it was valid when rule 1 was pointed at them. And that's before we get into the whole "bust into someone's department and pick a fight then scream your need for revenge after you lose a fight you started" thing.

It's a good thing we got rid of those little rules too and just let people dunk on tiding shitters.

MFW Lavaland s more powerful then anything on the station short of 1. old viro 2. slime cell gygax

mfw a miner comes back covered in strange looking loot and I just tase him

Yeah i dunno this whole problem seems like shit all the way down. A one way escalation policy where you become completely valid and yet unable to retaliate is absurd. On the other hand it seems reasonable to try and kill the gigantic fucking dragon who "accidentally" dropped fire on you while he was trying to get at someone else and it sucks to get fucking dunked on because you were near the whole ordeal when it happened

See, I don't mind having shit like this happen, but it's the lack of policy on it

Given that they are so rare, I'd say it's fine, but, it's nice to know that anything made from mining is also valid to kill, I didn't attack the morph because I was unsure on that

Could be put in the rules somewhere, just one line

"Valid" is a concept that needs to go tbh

DemonFiren wrote:Rules are a concept that needs to go tbh

Lets not get too carried away

for some reason it only seems to be like three admins causing a shitfest about it and banning people over it.

even though its been in for like three months...

Kor wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:Rules are a concept that needs to go tbh

Lets not get too carried away

Well, they are by definition the result of a less-than-ideal playerbase and administration.
They do need to go, provided they go because the need for their existence has disappeared.

DemonFiren wrote:

Kor wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:Rules are a concept that needs to go tbh

Lets not get too carried away

Well, they are by definition the result of a less-than-ideal playerbase and administration.
They do need to go, provided they go because the need for their existence has disappeared.

>Rules are the result of a less than ideal playerbase

What? Games need rules if you're playing anything but Calvinball

DemonFiren wrote:Well, they are by definition the result of a less-than-ideal playerbase and administration.
They do need to go, provided they go because the need for their existence has disappeared.

Why don't we just, you know, change the self-antagging loot with something that doesn't give license to kill the station because you killed something that becomes progressively less trivial the more times you kill it [like every other NPC in the game]. At the very least stop giving these self-antag abilities such strong power.

I don't even recall away missions, despite their numerous varieties of loot, giving you self-antag abilities outside of the really long one with the wish granter [which at least was balanced] and the wizowd den [which had a 1/20 chance ala die of fate].

Here's my opinion of each, feel free to critique them [I don't enforce any of this since I stay hands off when it comes to boss loot until this gets more solidified]

The morph self-antag I'm ok with because everything pops out of it once you kill it and it's no different than a random event morph [or if it is I haven't seen much difference]. It's interesting and a unique threat to the station, not to mention not many people morph it up.

Marking yourself for death i'm NOT ok with because "tee hee I can chainsaw everyone now", which doesn't bring anything interesting to the table that a normal antag couldn't do. Dunno if the marked person gets any benefits besides the chainsaw to murderbone... I mean """defend himself""", maybe they all just know how to dance around and aim at legs. Even if it's used "correctly", it's a "have this person be killed along with a few bloodlust participants as well without any escalation needed" item that doesn't really bring much to the table.

Dragon Tales-ing yourself is meh [not like you get to choose to do this since there's valid benefits from drinking the potion besides dragon-tales'ing], not too thrilled about it going on the station when by nature it causes a lot of collateral damage [see hitting causes you to do the + anyways or SWOOPS], but I also understand that it's kind of pointless to get to be a shweet dragoon and not show it off onstation. It can also easily remove someone entirely from the round [unless robros are bae]. such a shame really.

I don't even think I've seen mayhem so I'm not going to put my 2 cents in it.

Hiero staff is the best one tbqh, Utility Support boss weapon is literally my calling.

John_Oxford wrote:for some reason it only seems to be like three admins causing a shitfest about it and banning people over it.

even though its been in for like three months...

This is probably because of

something that becomes progressively less trivial the more times you kill it [like every other NPC in the game].

This probably would NOT be an issue if the same people stopped doing this consistently, although I'm not going to give them grief about it outside of forum shade when we also allow people to constantly quickrush science, viro, etc. [although they at least are bounded by the rules to not harm others with their toys, unlike the user who antags himself].



In all honesty I wouldn't mind a player poll about how players feel with others self-antagging, if they don't mind getting GG'd because a non-antag killed a boss then I don't feel like I should care either.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:In all honesty I wouldn't mind a player poll about how players feel with others self-antagging, if they don't mind getting GG'd because a non-antag killed a boss then I don't feel like I should care either.

If it turns out the general playerbase wants a role that can self antag to that degree, then fine. Right now there's apparently a completely weird disconnect between Kor's toys and the rest of the game as far as self-antagging and i'm just gonna bundle it together as the same thing since it basically is.

There's a pretty consistent divide, and most of the things on both sides are my "toys"


Things you can get consistently each round and would destroy the game if people were allowed to self antag with it
-Xenobio
-Polymorph
-Drake transformation

Things that are rare and won't destroy the game if you can self antag with it
-Morph syringe
-Wishgranter

Also monthly reminder the best way to self antag isn't doing your job and gambling on a morph syringe, it's suiciding roundstart and waiting to get picked as some event role or round type reinforcement

>it's another "I don't like a feature so I'm going to ban people for employing it" episode

You're free to go through this entire year's worth of logs and check if i'm salty because i've been killed by it before, you won't though because it hasn't happened.

If you're this upset i'm enforcing nonantags following proper escalation then you should actually play the game sometime.

I feel like the drake escalation thing and the morph becoming an actual antag are two separate arguments and this thread is messier than it has to be because we've having them at the same time.

Kor wrote:

bandit wrote:Mining drops were a mistake.

What is the difference between the morph event having a chance of randomly pulling a ghost and creating a morph and the map having a random chance of loading something that can turn someone into a morph?

Responding to this as well as your earlier comments: The morph event doesn't affect someone's existing life. They're either dead already and relinquishing their own life, or a ghost that observed. They are not currently part of the round, and they are not throwing away being part of the round to self-antag.

If I turn myself into a slime and walk out into the station I don't deserve to get KOS'd because I turned myself into a slime. Mindlessly murdering a slime should get the same punishment as mindlessly murdering a human-- a ban, or at minimum a shitty note.

ShadowDimentio wrote:If I turn myself into a slime and walk out into the station I don't deserve to get KOS'd because I turned myself into a slime. Mindlessly murdering a slime should get the same punishment as mindlessly murdering a human-- a ban, or at minimum a shitty note.

If the humans from lava land, pod people, golems and ash walkers don't receive any protection to being killed, why should a slime get these protections?

Ash walkers try to kill you is why, everyone else shouldn't be KOS though. Like how do you justify killing a golem unless they were trying to start shit?

ShadowDimentio wrote:Ash walkers try to kill you is why, everyone else shouldn't be KOS though. Like how do you justify killing a golem unless they were trying to start shit?

It depends on context. Sometimes golems are taken by new people trying to fill a grudge and stuff. Other times they keep to themselves until they empty your ore crate and think they are faster than your 3 damage mod proto ka.

Kor wrote:There's a pretty consistent divide, and most of the things on both sides are my "toys"


Things you can get consistently each round and would destroy the game if people were allowed to self antag with it
-Xenobio
-Polymorph
-Drake transformation

Things that are rare and won't destroy the game if you can self antag with it
-Morph syringe
-Wishgranter

sorry for bringing up an old post but dragon is not something you can get every round, considering you have to kill a drake, then roll a dice to see if you even GET the drakeblood, then if you don't, kill ANOTHER dragon and so on so forth until you get it. that's not CONSISTENT

It's consistent enough that Blessed was able to do it almost every round

Let's not forget that Xenobio can spawn Magicarp with bolts of change, sentience them, and have them turn people into drakes.

>throwing away being part of the round

How is an antagonist not part of the round

another thing on my list of things to remove

I've tried to remove lavaland half a dozen times stop closing my PRs

D&B wrote:It depends on context. Sometimes golems are taken by new people trying to fill a grudge and stuff.

If someone is trying to grudge you through lavaland roles ahelp and adminbus will destroy them for you.

A major issue it seems is morphs being considered antags, which doesn't really make any sense.
It's similar to the drake I would think; they are still their prevoius mind, but in a new body. Why should they get carte blanche to be a gigantic dick?

The 'eating R&D' morph story, will use as an example. Like most things about escalation or such, think it is easy. The morph, did he have a reason as a human crew prior to wanting to ruin R&D? If he did, then escalation, and he stole a way to do it. Atea ll their shit. Bottom line is like a free/purged AI but without the creator being held accountable, too, as the morph is the user and creator both. He has free will, he should defend himself if he's attacked (which he hsould accept as a result of being a goop monster). But he shouldn't be eating all of R&D dept. without a fucking good reason, just like a purged AI shouldn't be plasma-flooding without an actual reason. Just like any other, non-antag crew.

Not sure what is so damn difficult.

Note: Regarding the ash drake, people who use it then go onto the station should be killed.Why? They have no control over their fire shit because coding of player drake right now, meaning they are like a person walking around with a bomb in their hand. It's -entirely their fault- if they are shoved over, and someone picks it up and turns the valve on it. The drake, whether or not he is trying, is still shitting streams of fire in all directions as the mob attacks, and he is liable/justified in lynching given fire damage. You shouldn't be in the station, if you are doing this. You don't want to be bored/alone in mining?! Don't turn into a fucking dragon just because its cool you dumb fuck. Being a drake and then being in the station is essentially BAITING and then burning stuff around you as you 'attack that one guy.' And then everybody is justified in lynching the giant lizard for being a fuckwit in a station encircled by vacuum.

Being a morph means everyone else can kill you, and you can do the same. That's all there is to it.

Gamarr wrote:
Note: Regarding the ash drake, people who use it then go onto the station should be killed.Why? They have no control over their fire shit because coding of player drake right now, meaning they are like a person walking around with a bomb in their hand. It's -entirely their fault- if they are shoved over, and someone picks it up and turns the valve on it. The drake, whether or not he is trying, is still shitting streams of fire in all directions as the mob attacks, and he is liable/justified in lynching given fire damage. You shouldn't be in the station, if you are doing this. You don't want to be bored/alone in mining?! Don't turn into a fucking dragon just because its cool you dumb fuck. Being a drake and then being in the station is essentially BAITING and then burning stuff around you as you 'attack that one guy.' And then everybody is justified in lynching the giant lizard for being a fuckwit in a station encircled by vacuum.

If this turns out to be the official admin ruling (having read the thread in ban appeals, it probably will), then it's better to just remove the lesser drake transformation. Remember that lesser drake is not the only roll, the vial can give you other useful perks (es. lavawalking). With those restrictions and unless you're antag, it becomes "Oh shit I rolled lesser drake, welp time to ghost" because you are forced to stay in lavaland for the rest of the round (and I suppose you can't attack other players even there) or you get banned.

Kor wrote:I've tried to remove lavaland half a dozen times stop closing my PRs

you don't use a cruise missile to kill a mouse

Says you

Kor wrote:>throwing away being part of the round

How is an antagonist not part of the round

A morph/drake/whatever doesn't contribute to the station. You are taking a productive station role (and slot for new players) and turning it into a meme, when these were meant for ghosts.

bandit wrote:

Kor wrote:>throwing away being part of the round

How is an antagonist not part of the round

A morph/drake/whatever doesn't contribute to the station. You are taking a productive station role (and slot for new players) and turning it into a meme, when these were meant for ghosts.

>productive

Producing towards what? SS13 is not a job simulator.

>meant for ghosts

Says who? Why is the assistant who rolled for antag and then jumped out an airlock more deserving of playing the fun monster than the "productive" guy?

oranges wrote:

Kor wrote:I've tried to remove lavaland half a dozen times stop closing my PRs

you don't use a cruise missile to kill a mouse

The common thread between a lot of these complaints, from the same group of people, seem to be that stuff from lavaland ends up impacting the station at all (the miner killed me with some loot he found, a monster or angry lizard tribe got on the station, etc). Like they've given up trying to have it removed and instead want to be able to ignore it entirely.

There is no point in having this big z level with tons of random content if none of that random content is allowed to change the flow of the game. The entire reason for the ruin system existing is so that round altering content could exist without it having to be consistently available.