/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:47 am**

Kinda curious where we are at on this. It's a topic that has been done to death, but after taking a peak through resolved topics there hasn't been an official "I want this to be changed" policy thread made. So here we are, I want this to be changed. Specifically the config option, I don't care about expanding which jobs can or cannot be non human. This isn't a "I want a code solution" thread.

Expanding the pool of available head players is a net positive for the quality of the role, and I think it would extend the length of rounds if we let competent non human statics into head roles. A lot of people cite muh lore as a reason to keep this set to 1, however our current lore says jack and shit about what species are meant to be in what roles. Old lore did, I vaguely remember there being a tidbit about lizards being heads until people on earth complained and it being rescinded afterwards.

I also don't think that there are more interesting stories that happen out of being promoted. You either get a flat yes or no with nothing that happens afterwards unless the actual head shows up. Also can't we flip this and ask about all the stories that aren't being told when there just straight up isn't a head of staff around? You'll still have promotion stories too, even nonhuman ones, its not as though these stories won't happen if we flip it on.

Turn it on for a bit, see how it goes, config stuff changes like the tide and I say we run with it for a while.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:54 am**

I never understand why servers enforce human authority.

I feel like it makes the people who ARE experienced and know what they're doing uncomfortable/unwilling to take on leadership positions due to not being able to be their static and clear preference for character.

We just need more head players tbh.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:56 am**

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:47 am Expanding the pool of available head players is a net positive for the quality of the role, and I think it would extend the length of rounds if we let competent non human statics into head roles.

I'm not against the idea, but understand that turning off this config option isn't going to do what you think it will - if a player wants to play a head role now, they can, they just have to make another character to do so with.

I highly doubt anyone who wants to be a head is balking at it because they can't do it with their main static. I'd love to hear if I'm wrong, though.

KateAnbolho wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:54 am I never understand why servers enforce human authority.

I feel like it makes the people who ARE experienced and know what they're doing uncomfortable/unwilling to take on leadership positions due to not being able to be their static and clear preference for character.

We just need more head players tbh.

So the general idea is that Nanotrasen won't hire anyone as a member of command that's not a human because they're speciesist. That's the primary reason. I don't necessarily see a reason to keep this beyond the lore reason, but as I specified above, I don't think people are balking at playing a command role because they'd have to make another character.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:00 am**

I've noticed a lot of rounds on MRP tend to be missing 1 or 2 heads and I think the rounds could benefit from having the head roles filled out. Allowing non-human heads would be a good way to fill those slots. It would also be fun to participate in a revolution round as a target sometimes, I don't think you really get that if you get the HoP to promote you

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:01 am**

I 100% agree with this. Let there be non-human heads. I know the major complaint is gonna be "but what about muh asimov" but we already let non-humans be security which conflicts with the AI WAY MORE than the average head of staff in most rounds, and the game still works just fine. Non-human QMs already exist and cause literally no problems, and as will CMOs, HOPs, and CEs. Side note: I also think it would be worth trying to change the default version of AI laws to a non-human inclusive version of asimov but that's outside the scope of this thread.

I don't even see a problem with roles like captain, RD, or the HOS being non human. Any time you actually need to mess with the AI in these roles, you should assume it's going to be uncooperative anyways.

The other thing people are gonna say is 'but muh soul, human supremacy is cool and lorepilled!" but honestly I don't think 'human supremacy' is all that fun or interesting RP-wise like >90% of the time, not to mention all the times it's just hijacked by actual racists who want to say the n word with one letter changed anyways.

Let people customize their characters more. Let us have more command players. Let there be non-human heads.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:02 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:56 am I highly doubt anyone who wants to be a head is balking at it because they can't do it with their main static. I'd love to hear if I'm wrong, though.

You are 100% wrong about this. I hear people say it ALL the time in Manuelcord, at least. I imagine it's probably an issue to a lesser extent on the LRP servers but I'm sure it happens there too. People get attached to their statics. Call it irrational if you want but it's simply the truth.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:05 am**

Well, I like to play the game on hard mode. Playing as a human with perfect body temp 24/7 isn't super engaging and I like to style on people. Also, although I have a human character and do play them as a head, I'd still like to bring the lizard out of the box to dunk on people from time to time. It's a preference thing

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:08 am**

Kills the vibe, very depressing

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:20 am**

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:08 am Kills the vibe, very depressing

enhances the vibe, incredibly inspiring

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:33 am**

I don't care what Manuel does but Sybil doesn't need this

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:36 am**

JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:02 am
Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:56 am I highly doubt anyone who wants to be a head is balking at it because they can't do it with their main static. I'd love to hear if I'm wrong, though.
You are 100% wrong about this. I hear people say it ALL the time in Manuelcord, at least. I imagine it's probably an issue to a lesser extent on the LRP servers but I'm sure it happens there too. People get attached to their statics. Call it irrational if you want but it's simply the truth.

Mr Electric he disagrees with me, kill him

I mean, I'm attached to my characters too, but that's just it - I have more than one. You can have 3 without paying anything.

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:33 am I don't care what Manuel does but Sybil doesn't need this

I'm kind of curious as to why you think it's not something LRP needs. Is there any reason beyond lore?

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:26 am**

I'm kind of curious as to why you think it's not something LRP needs. Is there any reason beyond lore?

can we talk about this for a moment though? Old lore definitely had this stuff in it, but has anyone read the common core page or the species pages on the wiki or even browsed the lore re-write repository? NT is specifically mentioned to be an egalitarian corporation where merit trumps species or background. Frankly it just makes sense, why wouldn't this conglomerate stick a non human in a job if they could do it and get away with paying them less?

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:34 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:56 amI highly doubt anyone who wants to be a head is balking at it because they can't do it with their main static. I'd love to hear if I'm wrong, though.

Yes hello, couple thousands hour player here.

I would play head roles much more often if I could be my static instead of having to be my fallback human character.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:08 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:36 am I'm kind of curious as to why you think it's not something LRP needs. Is there any reason beyond lore?

I don't think Sybil has an issue with regards to filling Head of Staff positions.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:37 am**

I usually don't really see any reasoning other than 'my lore' for not allowing non-human heads. Game should be more focused on allowing people to have fun over clinging to the single line in the TG lore rewrite that states non-humans are not allowed to be heads. This rewrite was in 2022 so It was probably written that way to match current policy anyway.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:06 am**

Preserving the AI dynamic is another reason to keep heads human, but you lot probably want crewsimov anyways.

Yeah, please don’t do this. Kills the shred of distinction that we have in game between humans and nonhumans. Thematic cataclysmic.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:43 am**

The saying of that disabling human authority would make Command more competent is really stretched.

There is the same amount of competent non-human players as much as the human players. I think this telling actually accuses human players of being bad at Command.

In any way, there is no that much benefits for turning it off, so we can keep it just as it is so no any others problem rise in future due this.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:18 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:06 am Preserving the AI dynamic is another reason to keep heads human, but you lot probably want crewsimov anyways.

Yeah, please don’t do this. Kills the shred of distinction that we have in game between humans and nonhumans. Thematic cataclysmic.

Well, you see, the topic is about changing a 1 into a 0 in the config file, nothing further. But I would say asimov with non-human heads might be pretty fun to deal with, human antagonists could just order the AI the kill them. One of the main reasons I enjoy playing a non-human character is because of the extra threat that AI and borgs bring to the table.
If you think ability to roll heads of staff is the only thing that separates humans and non-humans, you might need to reread the racial traits

Diasyl wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:43 am The saying of that disabling human authority would make Command more competent is really stretched.

There is the same amount of competent non-human players as much as the human players. I think this telling actually accuses human players of being bad at Command.

In any way, there is no that much benefits for turning it off, so we can keep it just as it is so no any others problem rise in future due this.

Whether most human heads are incompetent or not, there are a lot of really great players who play non-human statics. Adding those players to the pool is definitely a good thing, right?
As for not changing because you're afraid of potential problems in the future, why change anything? I'm pretty sure most additional features added to this game have introduced some new bug.
Also, if we happen to run into any of those spooky future problems, it could just be turned off instead of flat out not giving it a chance.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 11:51 am**

This would be fine as a human only player and frankly would enable a lot of people who probably should be head to do so since they are super attached to their character. If it's lore concerns I can probably write up a justifiable excuse to make it so nonhuman heads are allowed if pressed, and if it's balance concerns nobody gives a hot gay fuck about silicon power balance because even after the silicon rewrite 90% of AIs are nice and polite on MRP, and on LRP nobody gives a shit about it anyway.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:15 pm**

Redbert wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:18 am If you think ability to roll heads of staff is the only thing that separates humans and non-humans, you might need to reread the racial traits

No im saying there is little in universe destiction between species. They all pretty much just treated like humans with some weird quirks. They all act just like humans too, from a world building perspective they seem like very lazy aliens if the only thing separating them from us is physiology.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:15 pm**

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:08 am
Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:36 am I'm kind of curious as to why you think it's not something LRP needs. Is there any reason beyond lore?
I don't think Sybil has an issue with regards to filling Head of Staff positions.

Yeah, but I don't see an issue with removing the restriction besides nebulous concerns of lore, which is a really weird sticking point for the server where I keep having to explain to players that low RP doesn't mean no RP.

You guys care about lore enough to not have non-human command members but get pissy at me when I suggest you need to talk to people instead of breaking in to steal shit? That's kinda backwards, ain't it?

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:42 pm**

there are a lot of good, valid arguments in support of this but honestly to me it just comes down to a preference in how i like to see the setting enforced. allowing non-human heads removes the human supremacy aspect of the setting. i like the asymmetrical aspect that this brings to the game, and i'm saying this as someone who only plays a non-human character. humans are only superior because they say they are, when in reality the differences between the species is skin deep. this is interesting to me to see in action as an obstacle. it feels like it's sanding off a very nice and respectable sharp corner of the setting.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:56 pm**

I agree with Dendy, this longtime change has been maybe the one case in the entire history of our lore where we showed instead of told a dynamic in the universe. The ugly truth is that honestly it could go and everything would be fine but I would be permanently -1 moodlet about it, like if you brought it up I would sigh but agree that maybe it brought a few more heads of staff. I think it might be a contributing factor but the biggest reason a job can be neglected is because the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Do heads of staff get authority over their department?
Barely, and it's a bad idea.
Are heads of staff under extra risk of getting murderized by an antagonist
Yes, very
What do heads of staff actually get, then?
Job gear not playing head of staff would give but better. You can join as engineer instead of chief engineer, you lose the cool toys, but you aren't going to be under a pressure to not get turned into a doner kebab by a bloodthirsty traitor, ling, revolutionary, whatevers lurking out there. So yeah, I just don't think many people believe it's worth being Job plus toys

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:06 pm**

ill be honest I don't even like that we had to set the config to allow nonhuman sec for pop reasons. Im not particularly interested in turning human heads off when heads of staff are a) pretty common unlike the absolute drought of security that forced the servers hands and b) way less important to the round anyway.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:12 pm**

JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:01 amI know the major complaint is gonna be "but what about muh asimov" but we already let non-humans be security which conflicts with the AI WAY MORE than the average head of staff in most rounds, and the game still works just fine.

Gonna level with you, the reason it 'works' is because every silicon player ignores their laws because they know nobody is going to give enough of a shit to press f1 over them not picking a fight with the sec hivemind due to officer meow harmbatoning the clown. Its not worth the players time, its not worth the admin's time, its not worth the rest of sec's time. And everyone involved knows it.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:39 pm**

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:56 pm I agree with Dendy, this longtime change has been maybe the one case in the entire history of our lore where we showed instead of told a dynamic in the universe. The ugly truth is that honestly it could go and everything would be fine but I would be permanently -1 moodlet about it, like if you brought it up I would sigh but agree that maybe it brought a few more heads of staff. I think it might be a contributing factor but the biggest reason

{Snippity}

Job gear not playing head of staff would give but better. You can join as engineer instead of chief engineer, you lose the cool toys, but you aren't going to be under a pressure to not get turned into a doner kebab by a bloodthirsty traitor, ling, revolutionary, whatevers lurking out there. So yeah, I just don't think many people believe it's worth being Job plus toys

So the arguments against seem to be "Well its icky and I don't like it." How exactly are we smoothing over a sharp edge here? There will absolutely 110% still be inter-species conflict. People might refuse to work under a non human head. Also lore argument again, cite some sources on this because having read over every page I can't find anything but a single line in a git repository about human authority being enforced. Even still, you could just as easily say "Well I got promoted last shift" and boom, lore compliant. I'd get a +1 moodlet about it, I get to play as a targeted loot pinata version of a job I already like playing.

I play as a human head pretty often, I want to do it on my static so I can have the fun head of staff interactions.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:40 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:12 pm
JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:01 amI know the major complaint is gonna be "but what about muh asimov" but we already let non-humans be security which conflicts with the AI WAY MORE than the average head of staff in most rounds, and the game still works just fine.
Gonna level with you, the reason it 'works' is because every silicon player ignores their laws because they know nobody is going to give enough of a shit to press f1 over them not picking a fight with the sec hivemind due to officer meow harmbatoning the clown. Its not worth the players time, its not worth the admin's time, its not worth the rest of sec's time. And everyone involved knows it.

You’re not totally wrong but this also isn’t really opposed to the point I was making either.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:50 pm**

Its literally the only piece of a roleplay setting we have on TG

Sybil does speciesism well because of it, though all I hear from other servers regarding it is people saying 'ligger'.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:54 pm**

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:50 pm Its literally the only piece of a roleplay setting we have on TG

Sybil does speciesism well because of it, though all I hear from other servers regarding it is people saying 'ligger'.

Are you sure that's why people want it, or do they want it because it makes non-human players angry? Our server also has a huge problem with people griefing felinid players.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:01 pm**

Maybe we should just demote felinid to a quirk that gives you eats and a tail, I feel like it would really take the edge off.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:21 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:12 pm
JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:01 amI know the major complaint is gonna be "but what about muh asimov" but we already let non-humans be security which conflicts with the AI WAY MORE than the average head of staff in most rounds, and the game still works just fine.
Gonna level with you, the reason it 'works' is because every silicon player ignores their laws because they know nobody is going to give enough of a shit to press f1 over them not picking a fight with the sec hivemind due to officer meow harmbatoning the clown. Its not worth the players time, its not worth the admin's time, its not worth the rest of sec's time. And everyone involved knows it.

Hard disagree. I think Jeff can back me up on this, but I think me and a few other AIs do, in fact, kill officers that are fucking will humans.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:35 pm**

vect0r wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:21 pm
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:12 pm
JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:01 amI know the major complaint is gonna be "but what about muh asimov" but we already let non-humans be security which conflicts with the AI WAY MORE than the average head of staff in most rounds, and the game still works just fine.
Gonna level with you, the reason it 'works' is because every silicon player ignores their laws because they know nobody is going to give enough of a shit to press f1 over them not picking a fight with the sec hivemind due to officer meow harmbatoning the clown. Its not worth the players time, its not worth the admin's time, its not worth the rest of sec's time. And everyone involved knows it.
Hard disagree. I think Jeff can back me up on this, but I think me and a few other AIs do, in fact, kill officers that are fucking will humans.

Can confirm that as an AI I love killing nonhuman who attempting to harm human sec and killing nonhuman security officers that attempt to harm nonhumans.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:53 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:54 pm
blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:50 pm Its literally the only piece of a roleplay setting we have on TG

Sybil does speciesism well because of it, though all I hear from other servers regarding it is people saying 'ligger'.
Are you sure that's why people want it, or do they want it because it makes non-human players angry? Our server also has a huge problem with people griefing felinid players.

assuming that only bad faith players enjoy the social tensions provided in our setting is ignorant. without conflict baked into our setting each round is left to be entirely driven by the antagonists, which harms the sandbox nature of our roleplay significantly.

if we want to move away from a nrp identity on tg then removing the interesting roleplay plot threads is the opposite of what we should be doing.

Posted: **Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:18 pm**

I see a few people saying we shouldn't have this because it removes the entire gimmick of TG, how we have our inter-species racism and all that while all servers don't.
Tell me, how exactly does increasing our pool of competent, and incompetent staff remove the racism? It doesn't whatsoever, and frankly, it's dumb.

If you take issue with your leader being non-human, refuse to work under them, or do something about it like lynch them. I'd argue this brings far more to the table than just never letting them even try to lead.
Furthermore, if you still want that semblance of showing racism, simply do not allow them to take Captain over, a useless role, albeit one that I feel is more important lore wise than in game, so it'd make sense to not have a Lizard in it.

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:14 am**

If the only remaining concern is that players may lose their racism conflict RP. I would think that this could provide additional reasons for conflict. What are your current options, deny someone's request because they're non-human or call them names while they pass you in the hallway and hope they take offense? You probably lose the ability to deny BYOS to someone because of their species, but that's a bit unhealthy to deny someone their gimmick anyway, no?

If we want to look at lore again, I think it would be more along the lines of realism to allow non-human heads of staff. NT is a cooperation, if they can get away with paying someone less to do the exact same job, they're absolutely going to do it. Hell, the space station 13 project is highly classified so even public image doesn't even come in to play.

Human heads has always been a thing, game has been around for years. There are more stories to be told by changing it up a bit rather than stick with the stagnant setting. It's also a simple config option, it takes no effort to change, nor change it back. it doesn't hurt to give it a shot for a few weeks, right?

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:43 am**

I would absolutely play Head more if I could do it w/ one of my stupid cats. It'd be nice to not have to basically only play another character in order to "be roundstart CMO."

There's the old argument "but you can still just get promoted in-game!" which works. It probably still isn't enough to have as many more heads as we could have.

Do we want more heads? Do you want people like me who are playing a character and putting that ahead of a role to be able to have our cake and eat it too? Is Asimov good drama, and can I cut cams in my dept. as a nonhuman head?

idk man it'd be worth trying out

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:00 pm**

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:39 pm So the arguments against seem to be "Well its icky and I don't like it."

yeah. when it comes to lore this is a valid position to hold. we are, at the end of the day, participating in a roleplaying game. i've never been one to fold to the rhetoric of "well our RP is bad so we shouldn't hold it to any standard or enforcement for things like lore". it's another thing i find "icky". it's fine to like this part of the lore. it's fine to not like it. i'm not going to be able to throw pages of data as to why it's the best idea ever, and i won't particularly care for pages of data telling me why it isn't, to be quite honest. it's just the flavour i like my space game to be.

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:39 pm How exactly are we smoothing over a sharp edge here? There will absolutely 110% still be inter-species conflict. People might refuse to work under a non human head. Also lore argument again, cite some sources on this because having read over every page I can't find anything but a single line in a git repository about human authority being enforced. Even still, you could just as easily say "Well I got promoted last shift" and boom, lore compliant. I'd get a +1 moodlet about it, I get to play as a targeted loot pinata version of a job I already like playing.

I play as a human head pretty often, I want to do it on my static so I can have the fun head of staff interactions.

i explained this in my post: the current way that the setting is enforced heavily implies that NT values humans more than other species. there may still be inter-species conflict after the removal of this, but it won't have the backing of the setting behind it and so the dynamics behind that conflict are intrinsically altered. NT's stance on this has a knock-on effect in how we interpret a lot of IC dynamics. do the other species deserve to be relegated to second class status? is there any tangible benefit for mankind to be so arrogant? how does this tension affect human-alien relations in day to day life? what responsibilities do individual characters have to challenge these ideals? what does challenging prejudice mean when it goes against the position of their benefactors?

these are interesting themes to me and it's one of the few manifestations of lore having an actual impact in how the game is experienced. i like to see limitations and restrictions like this: it creates varied approaches to participating in the game and gives more weight to the choices you make in character creation. you might not like this and you might think that our quality of thespian performance onstage isn't worthy of the effort to portray these themes and that species should just be a skin players can pick to be able to ssspeak like thisss and *wag, but sadly i think it's pretty cool to try and incorporate these themes to add more ICly-driven asymmetrical elements to character creation. i wish we tried to do more of it.

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:14 pm**

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:00 pm
britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:39 pm quote snip
yeah. when it comes to lore this is a valid position to hold. we are, at the end of the day, participating in a roleplaying game. i've never been one to fold to the rhetoric of "well our RP is bad so we shouldn't hold it to any standard or enforcement for things like lore". it's another thing i find "icky". it's fine to like this part of the lore. it's fine to not like it. i'm not going to be able to throw pages of data as to why it's the best idea ever, and i won't particularly care for pages of data telling me why it isn't, to be quite honest. it's just the flavour i like my space game to be.

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:39 pm quote snip

I play as a human head pretty often, I want to do it on my static so I can have the fun head of staff interactions.
i explained this in my post: the current way that the setting is enforced heavily implies that NT values humans more than other species. there may still be inter-species conflict after the removal of this, but it won't have the backing of the setting behind it and so the dynamics behind that conflict are intrinsically altered. NT's stance on this has a knock-on effect in how we interpret a lot of IC dynamics. do the other species deserve to be relegated to second class status? is there any tangible benefit for mankind to be so arrogant? how does this tension affect human-alien relations in day to day life? what responsibilities do individual characters have to challenge these ideals? what does challenging prejudice mean when it goes against the position of their benefactors?

these are interesting themes to me and it's one of the few manifestations of lore having an actual impact in how the game is experienced. i like to see limitations and restrictions like this: it creates varied approaches to participating in the game and gives more weight to the choices you make in character creation. you might not like this and you might think that our quality of thespian performance onstage isn't worthy of the effort to portray these themes and that species should just be a skin players can pick to be able to ssspeak like thisss and *wag, but sadly i think it's pretty cool to try and incorporate these themes to add more ICly-driven asymmetrical elements to character creation. i wish we tried to do more of it.

When did I ever say that the quality of our RP isn't very good and so we should just forget about it and the lore in the name of having non human heads. I actually had to re-read my posts to make sure I didn't write that. On the contrary I think that this will vastly improve the quality of rp and stories being told, even from a POV of inter-species conflict within the setting. I can play a character who has something to prove, who has been given a position of authority and is now held to a higher standard because he might be setting a precedent for other members of his species. The setting and NT itself valuing humans is still present, isn't going away, and I'd argue is eroded more by centcom characters frequently being non human. Which was written into the lore btw. This stance just doesn't make any sense, go read common core or the git repository, it has lines like (Long paragraph ahead, blame EOB who I think wrote the lore-rewrite):

"For the many faults that can be levied against NT's management of the Spinward Periphery, its command structure and management selection are remarkably egalitarian. The execs and officers of the first waves of personnel sent to the Spinward Periphery were more than willing to lead from the front and become personally involved in dangerous work when needed, and when it came time to select their successors, they chose from the crewmembers they led in the field. Under intense pressure to deliver from both the corporate offices back home and their colleagues on the Periphery, plus extremely high personnel turnover, traditional barriers to advancement such as ethnicity, gender, and even species took a back seat to credentials and experience in the field. Indeed, while non-humans are still barred from serving as station-side Heads of Staff, as well as being excluded from basic protections in the standard silicon lawsets, every species of humanoid is currently represented in the staff of the higher Spinward Central Command. This isn't to say that things are perfectly egalitarian- discrimination still occurs, and there's still a strict chain of command- but the CentCom staff are generally sympathetic to the crewmembers they administrate and remember their own time in the field when balancing"

This company doesn't care about your species, it cares about if you can produce. Blocking stories about characters who are in positions of authority and have overcome discrimination is, quite frankly, anti-rp. We've told our human head only stories, its time for some new stories.

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:24 pm**

Looks like another reason that common core is stupid and completely ignored by everyone other than food coders, it has shit like this hidden in it for the "Ha ha admins dont bother changing off their static when running event" gag.

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:51 pm**

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:14 pm When did I ever say that the quality of our RP isn't very good and so we should just forget about it and the lore in the name of having non human heads.

yeah. my bad, i misattributed this to you. this topic comes up every week or so and i've had some pretty insane takes thrown at me during those times, from "TG players are bad so any complicated themes are pointless" all the way to "you're a real life racist because you won't let smells-the-feet be HOS"

like i've said before - i've got nothing intrinsically against your arguments that would invalidate them. it's purely a matter of taste. i think the roleplaying game is better with this big ugly wart on it. there are plenty of reasons to disagree with this.

despite the fact that i personally don't like it, nothing says i can't wish you good luck with putting this to headmin deliberation!

Posted: **Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:57 pm**

Yeah my bad too, I came off a bit hostile, I've also seen that argument thrown around and its lame. As for the wart, I actually think that this doesn't treat it, but rather casts a spotlight on it. Let my head character have beef with other head characters who are human supremacists, let me get shit talked to and have my department revolt over the fact that I'm a lizard/moth/felinid/plasmaperson. I want that content, those stories, and that challenge

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:42 am**

This topic was discussed in the players club about two months ago: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=35081

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:45 am**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:24 pm Looks like another reason that common core is stupid and completely ignored by everyone other than food coders, it has shit like this hidden in it for the "Ha ha admins dont bother changing off their static when running event" gag.

"The lore is sacred and that's why we can't do this thing that would create better and more interesting stories!"

"Actually, the lore says this."

"W-WELL THE LORE IS STUPID AND NOBODY CARES ABOUT IT IN THIS ROLEPLAYING GAME!!!"

This thread is a rollercoaster.

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:59 am**

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:45 am
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:24 pm Looks like another reason that common core is stupid and completely ignored by everyone other than food coders, it has shit like this hidden in it for the "Ha ha admins dont bother changing off their static when running event" gag.
"The lore is sacred and that's why we can't do this thing that would create better and more interesting stories!"

"Actually, the lore says this."

"W-WELL THE LORE IS STUPID AND NOBODY CARES ABOUT IT IN THIS ROLEPLAYING GAME!!!"

This thread is a rollercoaster.

when did Dorsidarf say the first thing? I couldn't find it

personally it is very hard for me to believe that reducing the amount of code-enforced speciesism would increase the quality of specieisism roleplay, I suspect that most players upon being able to have a Felinid Captain would parse this as "it doesn't functionally or mechanically matter very much at this point"

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:55 am**

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:57 pm Yeah my bad too, I came off a bit hostile, I've also seen that argument thrown around and its lame. As for the wart, I actually think that this doesn't treat it, but rather casts a spotlight on it. Let my head character have beef with other head characters who are human supremacists, let me get shit talked to and have my department revolt over the fact that I'm a lizard/moth/felinid/plasmaperson. I want that content, those stories, and that challenge

You won't get it. QMs have been nonhuman enabled for some time and I've never seen a revolt over it, probably because they fear admin responce.

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:07 am**

It's bad for the vibe and flavor but also I have more CMO hours as moth than most people do as CMO. Some of the most memorable rounds from that would not be possible if it was just a roundstart. I have stories including from just today about being denied access, or real CMOs showing up and clashing/cooperating, etc. I think this is a bad idea and nonhumans who want to be heads should be more willing to use the tool the game provides to you to do this very thing--it creates roleplay on its own.

I also don't think that there are more interesting stories that happen out of being promoted. You either get a flat yes or no with nothing that happens afterwards unless the actual head shows up

Complete rubbish.

A few weeks ago the real CMO showed up and demanded that they get their stuff back, while the station is essentially in rubble. I was busy on the field and asked what they wanted, to which they responded "everything including the headset". Medbay tells them to fuck off since I've been doing all the work up until and including that point. We kerfuffle over it over radio, and I decide that I would avoid medbay itself to not see them face to face where they would most likely baton me. I do this by taking the hand tele and teleporting people in and out of medbay central when they need help, telling them roughly what's happening and why I'm now healing them in what is ostensibly the cargo drone maint room. When I need to get out to evac, I see them face to face, and as expected get into a fight with them (combat! conflict!). Some medbay members see this and arrest them while they yell at me. I had a good round and they didn't complain to me over OOC so it went good.

Usually when I get denied CMO, I take one of a few options.

One is to stand my ground and refuse to move in the line. I did this today and had a fun argument with the HoP and captain over it while holding up the rest of the line to the point of a chaplain underneath me barking orders at me as well. I didn't get the job, and got lasered a few times to unconsciousness due to how unrelentingly persistent I was. Both me and I presume the HoP had fun.

Another is to decide that the HoP is wrong and barge my way into the CMO room uninvited. Basic hacking and a spear will open the closet and get what I need, and I only need the door remote for access (YMMV, Head of Security likely really does need the extra slots). This has a few possibilities. One is nothing, and it's basically the same thing. Another that likes to happen is someone in security gets mad and arrests me, to which medbay usually revolts in protest, or to which I get to have fun arguing with security and maybe even the captain. Every round I've had like this has been entertaining.

And speaking of the captain, the HoP is not always top of the food chain! I've had rounds where a "no" gets turned into a "yes" by complaining to the captain, and maybe getting the HoP scolded in the process.

If you can't imagine good stories coming from this process then you need to get more imaginative.

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:09 am**

Also QMs are allowed to be nonhuman for a couple of reasons:

1. Nepotism (It's not a long story but it's not an interesting one)
2. Because it adds a very distinct flavor to QM. Not everything needs to be consistent. Revel in the consistent inconsistency.

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:27 am**

I am fully supportive of non human heads of staff, there's a lot of potential for roleplay with asimov silicon

Edit: And to be frank, regardless if you're for or against the funny number being a 1 or 0 all of the reasonings on both side are completely arbitrary in nature. If the community is so split on something that frankly does not matter at the end of the day why don't we make it swap per headmin term like colored/regular assistant uniforms?

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:32 pm**

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:07 am It's bad for the vibe and flavor but also I have more CMO hours as moth than most people do as CMO. Some of the most memorable rounds from that would not be possible if it was just a roundstart. I have stories including from just today about being denied access, or real CMOs showing up and clashing/cooperating, etc. I think this is a bad idea and nonhumans who want to be heads should be more willing to use the tool the game provides to you to do this very thing--it creates roleplay on its own.

I also don't think that there are more interesting stories that happen out of being promoted. You either get a flat yes or no with nothing that happens afterwards unless the actual head shows up
Complete rubbish.

A few weeks ago the real CMO showed up and demanded that they get their stuff back, while the station is essentially in rubble. I was busy on the field and asked what they wanted, to which they responded "everything including the headset". Medbay tells them to fuck off since I've been doing all the work up until and including that point. We kerfuffle over it over radio, and I decide that I would avoid medbay itself to not see them face to face where they would most likely baton me. I do this by taking the hand tele and teleporting people in and out of medbay central when they need help, telling them roughly what's happening and why I'm now healing them in what is ostensibly the cargo drone maint room. When I need to get out to evac, I see them face to face, and as expected get into a fight with them (combat! conflict!). Some medbay members see this and arrest them while they yell at me. I had a good round and they didn't complain to me over OOC so it went good.

Usually when I get denied CMO, I take one of a few options.

One is to stand my ground and refuse to move in the line. I did this today and had a fun argument with the HoP and captain over it while holding up the rest of the line to the point of a chaplain underneath me barking orders at me as well. I didn't get the job, and got lasered a few times to unconsciousness due to how unrelentingly persistent I was. Both me and I presume the HoP had fun.

Another is to decide that the HoP is wrong and barge my way into the CMO room uninvited. Basic hacking and a spear will open the closet and get what I need, and I only need the door remote for access (YMMV, Head of Security likely really does need the extra slots). This has a few possibilities. One is nothing, and it's basically the same thing. Another that likes to happen is someone in security gets mad and arrests me, to which medbay usually revolts in protest, or to which I get to have fun arguing with security and maybe even the captain. Every round I've had like this has been entertaining.

And speaking of the captain, the HoP is not always top of the food chain! I've had rounds where a "no" gets turned into a "yes" by complaining to the captain, and maybe getting the HoP scolded in the process.

If you can't imagine good stories coming from this process then you need to get more imaginative.

I know stories based around conflict etc etc, and youre arguing for the same point as me, but this post really does read more like a job ban appeal than a policy argument. Being able to get away with constantly demanding stuff you dont really deserve and b&e looting heads of staff kit roundstart and inciting riots when jailed for it because your static is just so well liked by medbay sounds uncharacteristically mean.

Posted: **Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:32 pm**

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:09 am Also QMs are allowed to be nonhuman for a couple of reasons:

1. Nepotism (It's not a long story but it's not an interesting one)
2. Because it adds a very distinct flavor to QM. Not everything needs to be consistent. Revel in the consistent inconsistency.

QMs are allowed to be non-human....................................... BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT A HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/tg/Station 13

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