/tg/Station 13

Hello everyone,

i have over the past 2-3 weeks have had numerous admins talk to me about space exploration and the fact that i do it very often seems to get me in trouble with some admins. after my first talks with isratosh i changed the frequency at which i did it and the way i retrieve loot to seperate out dangerous items from clothing/medkits/materials and haul those over to security as to leave only the stuff that crew might like to get their hands on while also retrieving stuff like the Free Clothesmates and the Free Med+ Vendors for Advanced medbots and people that realy like to buy kittyshoes etc.
I genuinly like to give all this stuff away to people and put a smile on their faces. Wether its giving the sad lizzard assistant a chameleon kit or the HoS the 1911 its just nice to make other people smile a bit with kindness

i love to do spaceexploration just as a way to switch off and do something im good at and i can be proficient at with my 200ms+ ping on the server and one thing i have a real issue with is the fact that one admin tells me to cut back on it - so i kinda set myself a limit of 1 out of 4 shifts. another admin tell me i cant even do it daily. the fact that nobody is able to quantify and/or qualify this is basically making me look at eva suits and be afraid to do anything space related as it would lead to a note and subsequently a ban.

In my last talk to bmon i tried to figure out which rules would be affected and he mentioned rule 7 + 10.

My Rule 7 Issue) Powergaming
im not sure how Rule 7 Powergaming is being invoked here as i generaly give away all the stuff to the crew and provide the dangerous stuff to security. This rule itself seems to disproportionally affect Non-Antagonistic players and if you take it to its logical conclusion, prior knowledge is to an extend powergaming. When i see nightmares or xenos run straight for the sm and break a specific pipe to cause a delam is that not the very definition of using ingame mechanics or game knowledge to your advantage? we cant all be bumbling idiots that got their memories wiped every shift.

My Rule 10 Issue) Roleplay and Repetition
Here is the crux to this entire post. What is too much? can anybody quantify too much in this regard? 1 shift out of 4, 1 shift out of 5? I used to play alot of atmostech and i logged several hundred hours in it. Is it powergaming to make Freon and sell a single BZ tank worth back to centcom for 100.000 credits 10minutes into the shift? Many players tend to gravitate towards certain things and as assistant i try to generaly get a sense of what might be usefull otherwise i go to space and try to be usefull that way. I rarely employ violence or kill people since i dont like to see others not be able to actualy play the game.



In regards to the sandbox aspect that is mentioned in the rules. I have had a very weird feeling about the way that the dynamic servermode is actually nullifying the sandbox aspect of the entire game idea. I used to play on a few different servers before i settled here a long time ago and the game modes over on those other servers had variations. while many of them fell under the umbrella "secret" it could end up being all kinds of things from clockwork cult, blood cultists to a hole bunch of set of things. Manuel in its current configuration which i took a good look at in the configuration files is basically limiting most shifts to an ever increasing escelation of round ending threats which usually end by meteors making it unlivable. Right now the general sense i get is, 1hour in and you can start to expect, blob, meteors, dragon, pirates. Instead of a sandbox its just a repeat of those 4 things with the only difference being: is the crew robust enough to get to the point of keeping it together until the meteors finish the station off or will the shuttle just be called at a point where incompetence overwhelms the station because departments are understaffed or too inexperienced to handle jobs like revival. In recent weeks its been shocking to see medbay being mostly defunct and you have to be lucky to get some of the familiar faces to show up to know you are in good hands otherwise you will not get revived.

I find the idea that space exploration for the purposes of giving things away to others being against any rules absurd. If the loot is so bad its running afoul of powergaming that is a code issue, manuel or not.

First they came for Rob Sterling. Then they came for Zishy. Soon nobody will be allowed to roam space ever again...

I get people don't like the same players constantly doing space ruins because there's a LOT of stuff out there that can affect the round if they're used to validhunt. But the keyword is IF, we already have validhunting rules and if they're doing it as an antag they already get freedom to do most shit. The real issue is that if admins start noticing you're a repeat space explorer you're basically blacklisted from doing it without asking for permission beforehand even if its been MONTHS since you last took a trip around. Miners already get a pass in the offchance they bring stuff up for security and the crew to mess with (I.e. Alien tools, Spare necropolis stuff etc)

"They" (cough cough) came for me too - to this day I'm still carrying a note that I cant valid hunt with space loot because of an apparent bunch of assumptions and lies people were telling admins, despite the fact that I've literally never valid hunted a space dragon, much less a crew member. Also never mind that I see people valid hunting constantly without any sort of repurcussion, with or without space loot - Such is the space world

Sigh.

Who told you once a day is too much?

Isn't the whole point of space exploration is to acquire loot?
Really stupid to just not allow a person play a part of the game they want to play, especially when that part of the game doesn't even directly harm anyone.

Cannot believe that space is finally going to get stared at by headmins because of this thread, this is so sad chat.

On a more serious note, one of the biggest issues they seem to have with space is that loot is concentrated in the hands of One Person. My solution frankly would be to spread the power out to everyone. If someone goes to space, instead of finding a makarov, find an illegal ballistic data disk that lets EVERY department print makarovs. Is this insane? Yes. Is it funny though and also enables people to both ICly want to clamp down on and also possibly want the loot instead of being ambivalent? Also yes. Plus, it makes it so that random fucko doing space can also end up equipping an antag better, or if an antag does it they can likewise end up buffing the people they're fighting.

tl;dr: make it so space gives loot that everyone on the station can have instead of just One Guy.

if you cant go to space every round any more, does this mean we can rename the curator "librarian" again and take away his museum gallery

The issue is not that people are going to space and getting loot, the issue is that individuals are doing it way too often. Zishy finds a gimmick and beats it into the ground rapidly for reasons I don't understand, then misconstrues us asking them to stop doing it so often as meaning it's bad to ever do.

The thread is not about whether or not space exploration is bad. Any posts about doing this A SINGLE TIME being against the rules should be removed as off topic.

Dealing with this as a coder can be really hard because people want there to be cool things to find in space, which means they should be things which are useful to have on the station, but we don't want them to be on the station every round because otherwise they would already be there.
"Having a fun thing be possible" has a worst enemy in the form of "the guy who finds out about it and then does literally nothing else".

i am trying to explore what is too much in this context. i have received different answers from different people on the admin team ranging from sure go ahead to dont do it. there is like 0 clearcut answer or rules. i also asked in respects to rule7/10 where the issue lies and if it can be prevented by simply giving all dangerous spaceloot to sec for example. it seems silly that i can only go to space now if i am an antag

Zishy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:38 pm i am trying to explore what is too much in this context. i have received different answers from different people on the admin team ranging from sure go ahead to dont do it. there is like 0 clearcut answer or rules. i also asked in respects to rule7/10 where the issue lies and if it can be prevented by simply giving all dangerous spaceloot to sec for example. it seems silly that i can only go to space now if i am an antag

I asked you earlier who told you that doing this once a day was unacceptable.

i sent you a pm over the forums. maybe you can check the ahelp chatlogs to get a better idea of who i talked to in particular and why this is my current impression

I'm more mad about people who get the hierophant club and voice of god every round.
I do not like those items or the consequences they bring, not one bit.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:22 pm Dealing with this as a coder can be really hard because people want there to be cool things to find in space, which means they should be things which are useful to have on the station, but we don't want them to be on the station every round because otherwise they would already be there.
"Having a fun thing be possible" has a worst enemy in the form of "the guy who finds out about it and then does literally nothing else".

The solution is simple we just need to add a number of lootless ruins to space. Space works exactly like lavaland except we don't have enough ruins to have any left over after all the points are spent during mapgen.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:53 pm The issue is not that people are going to space and getting loot, the issue is that individuals are doing it way too often. Zishy finds a gimmick and beats it into the ground rapidly for reasons I don't understand, then misconstrues us asking them to stop doing it so often as meaning it's bad to ever do.

The thread is not about whether or not space exploration is bad. Any posts about doing this A SINGLE TIME being against the rules should be removed as off topic.

I dont see how space exploring every round is an issue. If you aren't abusing the loot, anyways.

Miners basically do the same thing but with lavaland lets be honest.

RaveRadbury wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:39 am

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:22 pm Dealing with this as a coder can be really hard because people want there to be cool things to find in space, which means they should be things which are useful to have on the station, but we don't want them to be on the station every round because otherwise they would already be there.
"Having a fun thing be possible" has a worst enemy in the form of "the guy who finds out about it and then does literally nothing else".

The solution is simple we just need to add a number of lootless ruins to space. Space works exactly like lavaland except we don't have enough ruins to have any left over after all the points are spent during mapgen.

Honestly just add a bunch of the lavaland ruins to space. I'm sure the birthday party wouldn't look too off

RaveRadbury wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:39 am
The solution is simple we just need to add a number of lootless ruins to space. Space works exactly like lavaland except we don't have enough ruins to have any left over after all the points are spent during mapgen.

We do, it's just that it's incredibly easy to identify which ruins don't have loot and simply ignore them, unless you just want to make it RNG on whether loot even spawns, which would frankly kill a lot of people even investigating ruins at all

I had the idea to add some chef recipes that gave really strong mood/chemical buffs, but you can only make it with plants found in space ruins.

Frankly the solution here is what Rave recommended, but instead of adding exclusively empty ruins we should add ruins and then spread out the loot/add new kinds of loot.

the simple truth of the matter is that space ruins are not designed to be farmed every single round and all of that loot taken back to the station. it floods it with contraband and subversive items that change the dynamic (heh) of the round quite drastically in a lot of cases.

it's fun to explore space, conquer ruins and obtain cool items. but it's a separate tidbit to the main game. we don't want to strip a fun part of the game out but we also don't want people turning central primary into a weekend sale on guns, weapons, tools and armour every single round. there needs to be some give and take here: understanding from admins that the player is doing something they enjoy, and understanding from the player that by farming space ruins they are having a substantial impact on the round which is not desirable every few rounds every single day of the week.

i imagine the reason admins don't give you a strict number of rounds to do this in is because it's not a quantifiable number that means the difference between when it's acceptable and not acceptable. it doesn't go from unacceptable to totally fine if you do it 3 rounds a day instead of 4. the admin is looking to let you use your best judgement to keep it sensible. i see this as a sign of trust, not as a sign of trying to leave you in the lurch without an actual ruling.

personally, if you explored space and didn't bring anything back, i wouldn't give a shit how often you do it. but people just can't help themselves.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:20 pm the simple truth of the matter is that space ruins are not designed to be farmed every single round and all of that loot taken back to the station. it floods it with contraband and subversive items that change the dynamic (heh) of the round quite drastically in a lot of cases.

it's fun to explore space, conquer ruins and obtain cool items. but it's a separate tidbit to the main game. we don't want to strip a fun part of the game out but we also don't want people turning central primary into a weekend sale on guns, weapons, tools and armour every single round. there needs to be some give and take here: understanding from admins that the player is doing something they enjoy, and understanding from the player that by farming space ruins they are having a substantial impact on the round which is not desirable every few rounds every single day of the week.

i imagine the reason admins don't give you a strict number of rounds to do this in is because it's not a quantifiable number that means the difference between when it's acceptable and not acceptable. it doesn't go from unacceptable to totally fine if you do it 3 rounds a day instead of 4. the admin is looking to let you use your best judgement to keep it sensible. i see this as a sign of trust, not as a sign of trying to leave you in the lurch without an actual ruling.

personally, if you explored space and didn't bring anything back, i wouldn't give a shit how often you do it. but people just can't help themselves.

If space ruins arent meant to be explored every round then someone should probably tell the admins to cut down on curators, who EVERY round demand ai let them into eva and jetpacks and then shoot off into space looking for loot.

Why does it matter that one specific person is going and collecting spaceloot on each of their handful of rounds per day, instead of a wide variety of different people going and collecting spaceloot every round all day (as part of the job whose role is to go around collecting loot)

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:41 pm If space ruins arent meant to be explored every round then someone should probably tell the admins to cut down on curators, who EVERY round demand ai let them into eva and jetpacks and then shoot off into space looking for loot.

Why does it matter that one specific person is going and collecting spaceloot on each of their handful of rounds per day, instead of a wide variety of different people going and collecting spaceloot every round all day (as part of the job whose role is to go around collecting loot)

historically in my experience it hasn't been curators causing issues, this seems to be approached in a way that's in line with their role and is part of their job. if they do the same thing i see some assistant players doing, then i would ask them to consider changing what they do with the loot all the same.

the situation i see admins trying to address is assistants jumping out the airlock at roundstart then returning 20 minutes later and either spending the rest of their assistant round traversing the station as a trigger happy loot pinata or they dump their haul somewhere public where people can take what they want. sometimes this is cool and fun, but if you do it too much it has a very visible impact on the round. a traitor should not be outmatched in contraband fighting power by random assistants on a consistent basis: it's ass.

is this anecdotal? yeah. but anecdotal experience is what pushes admins to recognize trends when they talk to each other about it. this is about curating the space to keep it fun for all participants - sometimes that means that someone doesn't get to do their favourite gimmick every single round because of the impact it has on everyone else. this is a pretty standard aspect of administrating the game.

if people use it as an opportunity to explore space as a group and RP - i really don't care about that. if anything it sounds cool.

incidentally, if this is a ruling that's causing a lot of grief and confusion for a player then we should absolutely work with them to lay out the terms of it so that they understand what's being asked and why. they deserve that at the very least.

Using space loot to become The Goddamn Batman seems like something covered under the rule 3 changes, maybe.

The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.

Space should be free for people to explore, that's why it's there. Every round they play, if that's what a player wants. Even obtaining lethal space gear isn't really a huge deal unless the player is specifically going out of their way to validhunt with it. Hit them for the validhunting, not exploring.

The "G" part of "RPG" is also important. Let players have their fun.

zxaber wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:38 am The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.

Space should be free for people to explore, that's why it's there. Every round they play, if that's what a player wants. Even obtaining lethal space gear isn't really a huge deal unless the player is specifically going out of their way to validhunt with it. Hit them for the validhunting, not exploring.

The "G" part of "RPG" is also important. Let players have their fun.

Untrue. Space isn't there every round. That's why icebox exists. Lmao.

:geek

But yeah, total crutch.

zxaber wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:38 am The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.

Space should be free for people to explore, that's why it's there. Every round they play, if that's what a player wants. Even obtaining lethal space gear isn't really a huge deal unless the player is specifically going out of their way to validhunt with it. Hit them for the validhunting, not exploring.

The "G" part of "RPG" is also important. Let players have their fun.

Holy shit this is the most correct I've ever seen an admin be.

zxaber wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:38 am The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.

Space should be free for people to explore, that's why it's there. Every round they play, if that's what a player wants. Even obtaining lethal space gear isn't really a huge deal unless the player is specifically going out of their way to validhunt with it. Hit them for the validhunting, not exploring.

The "G" part of "RPG" is also important. Let players have their fun.

it's worth looking into this ruling specifically and hashing it out with the player for sure.

in general there's a few reasons i've seen why people believe they're banned from space.

some players are literally straight up told to stop exploring space. i get the sentiment with this one. on MRP one of our main rules is about limiting repetition of things that have a large impact on the round, but it feels quite heavy handed to say that a player can't access an entire section of the map anymore under any circumstances. when i bring up space loot with people, i'm not telling them they're banned from space. i'm asking them politely to stop bringing every gun in the galaxy back to the station.

secondly, some notes DO address the validhunting/powergaming aspect, but the player's interpretation of this note isn't that it's about asking them to not powergame, it's asking them to not explore space. to a few players space = loot, so if you remove the loot aspect, then space may as well be banned.

finally, while i agree it's better to be surgical with this sort of thing and apply it carefully to the players who are actually the ones doing the impacting, it could also feel quite bad to punish someone because they picked up a random 1911 off the floor that a space explorer dropped there and then happened to use it 20 minutes later, earning them an accusation of validhunting or powergaming. to me it would be better if the space explorer just dumped guns in the halls less, but i don't see this as any better or worse as an administrative solution, just a different approach.

Frankly, I don't think it's a problem. An argument could be made for future space ruins to have more niche items that can't directly help in a fight, but at the same time, some of those weapons come in handy to clear the more dangerous ruins as well. (Caravan ambush/paper wizard) Sure a player can grab a few guns, but we're long past the days of WT autorifles and the more dangerous stuff being accessible. Now if we were back in THOSE days where guns weren't bulky and strong weapons were all over the place, then yeah, you'd be justified in curtailing space. We should also consider the time and effort of exploring space and pilfering loot. It takes a while and is very unsafe if you stumble into the wrong ruin unprepared.

A traitor that knows a player has come back from space exploration could merk them for their stuff and be justified for it under the rules, which makes for more interesting RP for those who take advantage of it. I think it really comes down to player culture more than specific rulings. EVA is supposed to be locked down, so who is opening it roundstart and why? Why don't secoffs check and confiscate weaponry from space explorers for weapons they don't have a permit for?

If a player is validhunting with their weapons, then they'd validhunt with other things. It's a player issue, not a space issue. If traitors aren't going after space explorers for their loot, then that's on them for missing out on easy gear. If security isn't being watchful with player weapons, then that's on them if someone innocent gets killed in a shootout. And let's be real here; do the weapons that players bring back really make that large of an impact on the round as you claim? I don't think so. Even when I go space exploring, I'd have to put in considerable effort to bring more than a few items back with me.

Why make rules more stringent at the cost of the 'RP' part of 'RPG' AND the 'G' part of 'RPG'?

it's only a problem when it's a problem. to put it into perspective: in the last 6 months i've asked 2 people to stop bringing guns back to the station so often because the impact it was having on particular rounds was so great i felt i needed to address it. i haven't seen any further issues from either of those players and they still explore space whenever they want with no restrictions placed on them.

most often what happens is a player discovers space, it's new and shiny, they get very into exploring it and learning it and realize that they can supply the station with a truckload of contraband every round. this happens with lots of parts of the game and it's almost always a matter of the player getting over the novelty of something they've just discovered and then they stop doing it literally every second they're playing.

Coder issue that I see being resolved with a hammer called the remove button instead of tape called rebalance

If we had more things in space like the infinite box of pizza and Hilbert's hotel instead of guns and e cutlasses. There'd be no need to complain!

Some removed antagonist items/admin only stuff collecting dust would be good for space loot too. Like the flash dark.

if you overdo anything that can cause issues you can be told to knock it off. there is no quantifying when 'too much is too much' with a hard line. if you end up being told to cut something out, that is your line. you can present your argument that you're not overdoing it during the ticket itself.

This is just an issue of overdoing gimmicks. The hard limit to doing something is when people get sick and tired of it, and is usually not an issue if you mix things up from time to time. Basically, everything TBM has said.

Chesh - Yeah
TBM - See post above
Fikou - n/a