Sniping
- D&B
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:23 am
- Byond Username: Repukan
- Location: *teleports behind you*
Sniping
I'll preface with some examples:
In league and Dota, if you set up a stream, it is up to you to obscure the minimap and add a delay if you knowingly expose yourself tp revealing round crucial information.
In CSGO and R6S, likewise, you are voluntarily opening yourself up to being seen, so a delay in the stream is recommendes since the player is the one exposing themselves.
With that being said, if a player exposes himself by revealing round crucial information, which infringes on some metagaming rulea caused by their own actions (and inactions if no delay is inputted,) how the fuck is it good policy to note people for carelessnes in their part?
How do you even start confirming between metagaming and stream sniping if you can't log how they get their position without pulling at thin straws which could or could not be fake?
In league and Dota, if you set up a stream, it is up to you to obscure the minimap and add a delay if you knowingly expose yourself tp revealing round crucial information.
In CSGO and R6S, likewise, you are voluntarily opening yourself up to being seen, so a delay in the stream is recommendes since the player is the one exposing themselves.
With that being said, if a player exposes himself by revealing round crucial information, which infringes on some metagaming rulea caused by their own actions (and inactions if no delay is inputted,) how the fuck is it good policy to note people for carelessnes in their part?
How do you even start confirming between metagaming and stream sniping if you can't log how they get their position without pulling at thin straws which could or could not be fake?
Spoiler:
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- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
- Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli
Re: Sniping
streaming is impossible to manage as having any interaction with antagonists ll give anyone watching an advantage, they should be outright valid to kill to solve any problem
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
Why do you feel that people who seek metagaming information should be protected from their actions? League and Dota put the burden of information protection on their players because their burden of encforcement is substantially higher and would require substantially more information and effort to prove than ours. The way you present that is also misleading as there are games that do and have punished the players doing the sniping rather than putting the full burden on the victim of said sniping.
Our rules exist to protect against bad faith actors. Who in this scenario is acting in bad faith? The guy who streams the game to his audience with strict instructions that they not attempt to influence the round (as GTAV streamers currently do on pain of banning the viewers in question if they're caught metagaming or passing information between channels, etc) or the players who intentionally seek out a streamer's channel to harvest as much information as they can in order to fuck with the streamer or otherwise gain metagaming information with witch to influence the round?
Our rules exist to protect against bad faith actors. Who in this scenario is acting in bad faith? The guy who streams the game to his audience with strict instructions that they not attempt to influence the round (as GTAV streamers currently do on pain of banning the viewers in question if they're caught metagaming or passing information between channels, etc) or the players who intentionally seek out a streamer's channel to harvest as much information as they can in order to fuck with the streamer or otherwise gain metagaming information with witch to influence the round?
Glad we got the "just make them valid" shitpost out of the way early.Tlaltecuhtli wrote:streaming is impossible to manage as having any interaction with antagonists ll give anyone watching an advantage, they should be outright valid to kill to solve any problem
- Malkraz
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 am
- Byond Username: Malkraz
Re: Sniping
does this mean i can start broadcasting round-effecting information in a discord voice channel
just dont join it ok
just dont join it ok
wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
No and you already knew it didn't before you asked.Malkraz wrote:does this mean i can start broadcasting round-effecting information in a discord voice channel
just dont join it ok
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Sniping
love to have my otherwise stealthy greentext denied because a streamer on the other end of the map died in an unrelated incident five minutes ago and a sec player saw them streaming deadchat
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
- Byond Username: Optimumtact
- Github Username: optimumtact
- Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Re: Sniping
this is a really stupid position to put the admin team incedarbridge wrote:No and you already knew it didn't before you asked.Malkraz wrote:does this mean i can start broadcasting round-effecting information in a discord voice channel
just dont join it ok
now they have to pretend one set of meta info revealing is fine, but the other set is not.
Stupid
- Mickyan
- Github User
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
- Byond Username: Mickyan
- Github Username: Mickyan
Re: Sniping
You seem to misunderstand the practice of adding a delay to a stream as being a choice rather than being done out of necessity
In other words stream sniping is something only dickheads do and we don't have to put up with it since metagaming is against the rules and we have admins available to ban said dickheads
In other words stream sniping is something only dickheads do and we don't have to put up with it since metagaming is against the rules and we have admins available to ban said dickheads
- iamgoofball
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
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Re: Sniping
There's a way we could actually handle this, maybe.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Sniping
I don't think that would be fun for the streamer. It would also be pretty obvious if someone starts calling people by their pretend names.
If you're nutty enough to stream SS13, I would think your intentions are to show viewers the wacky scenarios that can happen. That said, I think being able to see characters and know who they are is important.
To make matters worse, this option wouldn't mean much when we don't monopolize the ss13 community. Not only are there community exclusive features players could use to narrow down which server a streamer was on, but simply implementing that codeside doesn't mean other communities (and certainly not other codebases) are going to use it as well.
Personally I'd just prefer we keep streaming minimized so that if there's going to be snipers, it's few and far between and isn't constantly impacting how other people play. I don't think SS13 was made to be streamer-friendly anyways lol.
If you're nutty enough to stream SS13, I would think your intentions are to show viewers the wacky scenarios that can happen. That said, I think being able to see characters and know who they are is important.
To make matters worse, this option wouldn't mean much when we don't monopolize the ss13 community. Not only are there community exclusive features players could use to narrow down which server a streamer was on, but simply implementing that codeside doesn't mean other communities (and certainly not other codebases) are going to use it as well.
Personally I'd just prefer we keep streaming minimized so that if there's going to be snipers, it's few and far between and isn't constantly impacting how other people play. I don't think SS13 was made to be streamer-friendly anyways lol.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
If I tell somebody who does not play the game or doesn't play on TG "ha, <funny thing> just happened in my round in SS13" is that metagaming? Of course not. Two players are not sharing information and nobody is seeking information for use in the context of the game itself. The same thing occurs with streaming. The streamer shows their audience (who are not players and not on the server) information in real time or with a delay about the game. This is not metagaming because there are not two players and no player is seeking round information. If there are players seeking out the streams for the purpose of gleaning whatever in-game information then that person doing the sniping /is/ metagaming or attempting to metagame and is in the wrong.oranges wrote:this is a really stupid position to put the admin team incedarbridge wrote:No and you already knew it didn't before you asked.Malkraz wrote:does this mean i can start broadcasting round-effecting information in a discord voice channel
just dont join it ok
now they have to pretend one set of meta info revealing is fine, but the other set is not.
Stupid
As said before, its very easy to know when somebody is sniping a stream.
- Rustledjimm
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:07 pm
- Byond Username: Rustledjimm
Re: Sniping
iamgoofball wrote:There's a way we could actually handle this, maybe.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
Did goof just have a smart idea.
Problem is we have so few streamers there aren't going to be many users.
Also the eternal problem of who is gonna code it.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.
Will Baker
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- lmwevil
- Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:09 pm
- Byond Username: Lmwevil
Re: Sniping
jimm skipped the thread after seeing goof's post, wouldn't work because of people flatout calling eachother names or w/e - also we shouldn't need to cater to people who want to stream an autistic atmos simulator
- iamgoofball
- Github User
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
- Byond Username: Iamgoofball
- Github Username: Iamgoofball
Re: Sniping
Not if you did the alternate-viewport thing and just kept the chatbox out of that. Stream with the alternative viewport, play on the normal viewport.lmwevil wrote:jimm skipped the thread after seeing goof's post, wouldn't work because of people flatout calling eachother names or w/e - also we shouldn't need to cater to people who want to stream an autistic atmos simulator
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- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
Re: Sniping
If you’re happy to play ss13 with baldies with fake names then you’re the wrong kind of player
- Plapatin
- In-Game Game Master
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Re: Sniping
Cobby wrote: I don't think SS13 was made to be streamer-friendly anyways lol.
wesoda25 wrote:i had a dream that me and some friends were like in this tribal village and we were all doing cocaine around this massive bonfire and I kept seeing all these foreshadowing elements that we were gonna die but i just did more cocaine
OrdoM wrote:Argent, a swan argent over a saltire vert - the vert representing the vomit cast upon the floor by the vomitgoose
- WarbossLincoln
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:14 pm
- Byond Username: WarbossLincoln
Re: Sniping
Does this happen enough to warrant code or policy?
When a well known streamer casts SS13 the admin team is already going overtime to deal with the influx of new players. They'll also be on the lookout for metagaming. I would think that amount of actual stream sniping to ruin round is pretty small and could be rooted out as admins go about their business.
When a well known streamer casts SS13 the admin team is already going overtime to deal with the influx of new players. They'll also be on the lookout for metagaming. I would think that amount of actual stream sniping to ruin round is pretty small and could be rooted out as admins go about their business.
- Rustledjimm
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:07 pm
- Byond Username: Rustledjimm
Re: Sniping
WarbossLincoln wrote:Does this happen enough to warrant code or policy?
When a well known streamer casts SS13 the admin team is already going overtime to deal with the influx of new players. They'll also be on the lookout for metagaming. I would think that amount of actual stream sniping to ruin round is pretty small and could be rooted out as admins go about their business.
You're forgetting you are in a community with an abnormally high amount of rules lawyers who demands rules for everything so they can try to lawyer their way out of the rules.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.
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- WarbossLincoln
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:14 pm
- Byond Username: WarbossLincoln
- D&B
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:23 am
- Byond Username: Repukan
- Location: *teleports behind you*
Re: Sniping
Much harder to cross the lines in the sand when they're cemented.WarbossLincoln wrote:True
This thread sprung up from a recent ban in which someone posted the link to their stream in OOC and then accused people of sniping. It seems dumb to me to be allowed to do fhis since if there were no admins on to check or constantly surpervise both the stream and server side to side, you'd have to err on the side of the streamer without any way of making sure they're being truthful (Unless you require them to also record the stream, but then you're making administrators responsible for watching a video however long the stream is)
Spoiler:
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
- Byond Username: Optimumtact
- Github Username: optimumtact
- Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Re: Sniping
assumption at the root of your failing to understand why the double standard is incredibly stupidcedarbridge wrote:If I tell somebody who does not play the game or doesn't play on TG "ha, <funny thing> just happened in my round in SS13" is that metagaming? Of course not. Two players are not sharing information and nobody is seeking information for use in the context of the game itself. The same thing occurs with streaming. The streamer shows their audience (who are not players and not on the server) information in real time or with a delay about the game. This is not metagaming because there are not two players and no player is seeking round information. If there are players seeking out the streams for the purpose of gleaning whatever in-game information then that person doing the sniping /is/ metagaming or attempting to metagame and is in the wrong.oranges wrote:this is a really stupid position to put the admin team incedarbridge wrote:No and you already knew it didn't before you asked.Malkraz wrote:does this mean i can start broadcasting round-effecting information in a discord voice channel
just dont join it ok
now they have to pretend one set of meta info revealing is fine, but the other set is not.
Stupid
As said before, its very easy to know when somebody is sniping a stream.
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- Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Nullbear
Re: Sniping
Last I heard, streamers have been banned because by streaming, they're providing a means for metacomms, and many servers have rules requiring that streamers have a minimum delay and notify admins of the stream in progress. I thought tg did this too but... Based on the thread... I guess not?
So... make long delay mandatory for streamers, and require them to report stream in progress.
If they don't, then either when question of another player using the stream for metacomms comes into play, the streamer should ALSO have to face the consequences. And if a stream is found but not reported, just treat it like any other metacomms
So... make long delay mandatory for streamers, and require them to report stream in progress.
If they don't, then either when question of another player using the stream for metacomms comes into play, the streamer should ALSO have to face the consequences. And if a stream is found but not reported, just treat it like any other metacomms
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
The streamers in question were banned not for providing a means for metacomms but because they were on their streams metacommunicating with others. I know. I banned two of them.nullbear wrote:Last I heard, streamers have been banned because by streaming, they're providing a means for metacomms, and many servers have rules requiring that streamers have a minimum delay and notify admins of the stream in progress. I thought tg did this too but... Based on the thread... I guess not?
So... make long delay mandatory for streamers, and require them to report stream in progress.
If they don't, then either when question of another player using the stream for metacomms comes into play, the streamer should ALSO have to face the consequences. And if a stream is found but not reported, just treat it like any other metacomms
- bandit
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
- Byond Username: Bgobandit
Re: Sniping
so a roleplay game stripped of every roleplay elementiamgoofball wrote:There's a way we could actually handle this, maybe.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
- Grazyn
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
- Byond Username: Grazyn
Re: Sniping
So ghost mode should be removed because It "provides a means to metacom"... Acting on information learned from metacom is bannable, or metacomming for that purpose. You can learn the AI is malf as a ghost after dying for unrelated reasons, you're still not allowed to act on it if you get cloned. That's the same as learning it from a stream.nullbear wrote:Last I heard, streamers have been banned because by streaming, they're providing a means for metacomms, and many servers have rules requiring that streamers have a minimum delay and notify admins of the stream in progress. I thought tg did this too but... Based on the thread... I guess not?
So... make long delay mandatory for streamers, and require them to report stream in progress.
If they don't, then either when question of another player using the stream for metacomms comes into play, the streamer should ALSO have to face the consequences. And if a stream is found but not reported, just treat it like any other metacomms
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- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
Re: Sniping
why don't we allow ick ock then, grazyn? listening to shit in ooc is as useful for metacomm as watching a stream.
who gives a fuck about streamers it's not different from metacomm
who gives a fuck about streamers it's not different from metacomm
- Grazyn
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
- Byond Username: Grazyn
Re: Sniping
Because it ruins Immersion
- iamgoofball
- Github User
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- Github Username: Iamgoofball
Re: Sniping
Are you just physically unable to read or do you just ignore the last line where I specifically say to give a viewport that is just for streamers to show to their audience? So that the streamer gets the original experience?bandit wrote:so a roleplay game stripped of every roleplay elementiamgoofball wrote:There's a way we could actually handle this, maybe.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
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- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
- PKPenguin321
- Site Admin
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Re: Sniping
he was pretty clearly talking about the viewersiamgoofball wrote:Are you just physically unable to read or do you just ignore the last line where I specifically say to give a viewport that is just for streamers to show to their audience? So that the streamer gets the original experience?bandit wrote:so a roleplay game stripped of every roleplay elementiamgoofball wrote:There's a way we could actually handle this, maybe.
CS:GO recently implemented a streamer mode that censors everyone's name, appearance, mutes voice chat, and hides the server name and most text chat.
We could implement something like this maybe. Make everyone a bald guy or girl, give everyone peace walker style code names, strip OOC, the server name, administrator names in ahelps, admin rank names, and round end/lobby sounds. Also the lobby screen could be made more generic too.
Hell, maybe we could get away with a second viewport popup that has all of this maybe, so you could stream the second viewport and hide the actual game.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
How did you think this post was at all responding to the post above you? IC in OOC and streaming have two entirely different audiences. They're not even comparable.confused rock wrote:why don't we allow ick ock then, grazyn? listening to shit in ooc is as useful for metacomm as watching a stream.
who gives a fuck about streamers it's not different from metacomm
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- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Sniping
Just ban the streamer duh.
I thought that was the policy actually it lines up with ic in ooc and meta coms rules.
I thought that was the policy actually it lines up with ic in ooc and meta coms rules.
- Grazyn
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
- Byond Username: Grazyn
Re: Sniping
There's a policy thread where the previous administration explicitly said that streaming isn't bannable.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=18090
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=18090
I can't see the harm in allowing streaming and I see benefits for both us and the streamer
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Sniping
A foolish make work policy just forbid streaming and ban streamers it's much less work and more fair really.
New player sees streamer playing game is attracted to play game too misses or doesn't listen to any disclaimers about metagaming cops a ban because a too gentle administration left an opened fire hydrant of IC in OOC erupting into the street.
New player sees streamer playing game is attracted to play game too misses or doesn't listen to any disclaimers about metagaming cops a ban because a too gentle administration left an opened fire hydrant of IC in OOC erupting into the street.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
>new player doesn't listen to warnings and doesn't read the rulesIncomptinence wrote:A foolish make work policy just forbid streaming and ban streamers it's much less work and more fair really.
New player sees streamer playing game is attracted to play game too misses or doesn't listen to any disclaimers about metagaming cops a ban because a too gentle administration left an opened fire hydrant of IC in OOC erupting into the street.
>cops ban
>but its not his fault he didn't read the rules its the guy who showed him the game!
Weren't you just talking about fairness?
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Sniping
Not like someone could start watching a stream late and miss a disclaimer if any.
It's more fair and efficient to cut off the source than to let it incriminate others willy nilly. Streaming is utterly incompatible and they can just stick to putting footage on youtube post round like sensible people.
Not saying people abusing this torrent of audio visual meta info shouldn't be banned but that it isn't fair to have the streamer vomiting a pestilential river of things that could get people banned, this is like leaving giant pile of cocaine sitting in the middle of a public park be completely legal while everyone who touches it gets thrown in the slammer. Treat the cause not the symptom.
It's more fair and efficient to cut off the source than to let it incriminate others willy nilly. Streaming is utterly incompatible and they can just stick to putting footage on youtube post round like sensible people.
Not saying people abusing this torrent of audio visual meta info shouldn't be banned but that it isn't fair to have the streamer vomiting a pestilential river of things that could get people banned, this is like leaving giant pile of cocaine sitting in the middle of a public park be completely legal while everyone who touches it gets thrown in the slammer. Treat the cause not the symptom.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
Disclaimer or not, the player is choosing not to read the rules and then choosing to break them. What you're suggesting is about as valid as banning anyone who makes a youtube video of one of their rounds and posts it later, encouraging others to play on that server too. Maybe they skipped over the disclaimer and then started breaking rules without reading them. Obviously they'd never have come to the server and played without the video so its the video's fault they broke the rules.Incomptinence wrote:Not like someone could start watching a stream late and miss a disclaimer if any.
It's more fair and efficient to cut off the source than to let it incriminate others willy nilly. Streaming is utterly incompatible and they can just stick to putting footage on youtube post round like sensible people.
Not saying people abusing this torrent of audio visual meta info shouldn't be banned but that it isn't fair to have the streamer vomiting a pestilential river of things that could get people banned, this is like leaving giant pile of cocaine sitting in the middle of a public park be completely legal while everyone who touches it gets thrown in the slammer. Treat the cause not the symptom.
- Dax Dupont
- In-Game Admin
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Re: Sniping
Streaming should be banned fully.
It's a retarded standard to permaban people for metacomms and then go around telling streamers it's okay because they are only broadcasting it.
If I IC in OOC I get first a warning and then escalating bans. If I was actively talking about the round in a voice chat where other SS13 players may hear it I would get banned even though I'm not getting advantages from it.
HOWEVER ITS ALL OKAY IF YOU DO IT ON TWITCH/YT?????
It's an absolute fucking retarded double standard. You can't even argue 'oh it works for other games' because there's almost no other game that has the unique requirements. It's like streaming a poker game but people who are playing can watch it and see each others cards.
But considering the retarded wanted of several admins to allow this because 'it gains more players!!!!' at least try to fucking limit it.
I don't understand how the administration can even remotely support streaming except for maybe that charity stream for children hospitals we had once or twice where it was made clear to players why, when and how. Which is an isolated event.
It's a retarded standard to permaban people for metacomms and then go around telling streamers it's okay because they are only broadcasting it.
If I IC in OOC I get first a warning and then escalating bans. If I was actively talking about the round in a voice chat where other SS13 players may hear it I would get banned even though I'm not getting advantages from it.
HOWEVER ITS ALL OKAY IF YOU DO IT ON TWITCH/YT?????
It's an absolute fucking retarded double standard. You can't even argue 'oh it works for other games' because there's almost no other game that has the unique requirements. It's like streaming a poker game but people who are playing can watch it and see each others cards.
But considering the retarded wanted of several admins to allow this because 'it gains more players!!!!' at least try to fucking limit it.
I don't understand how the administration can even remotely support streaming except for maybe that charity stream for children hospitals we had once or twice where it was made clear to players why, when and how. Which is an isolated event.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
Next we should ban for turning around and telling your roommate "Hey, I played this game and thing just happened. Pretty funny right? By your standard, that is metacommunication even though the person being spoken to is not a player and may never become a player. "If I was talking in voice chat where other players may hear" is not the standard. Its either a yes or a no. Are there other players present such that you're actively and intentionally sharing information with them? That's a ban. Are you existing in a discord voice chat while playing without knowledge of any other players? Who the hell is going to try to uphold that ban? Rule 3 bans acts of bad faith to exchange in-game information to other players. You should be able to distinguish this.Dax Dupont wrote:Streaming should be banned fully.
It's a retarded standard to permaban people for metacomms and then go around telling streamers it's okay because they are only broadcasting it.
If I IC in OOC I get first a warning and then escalating bans. If I was actively talking about the round in a voice chat where other SS13 players may hear it I would get banned even though I'm not getting advantages from it.
HOWEVER ITS ALL OKAY IF YOU DO IT ON TWITCH/YT?????
It's an absolute fucking retarded double standard. You can't even argue 'oh it works for other games' because there's almost no other game that has the unique requirements. It's like streaming a poker game but people who are playing can watch it and see each others cards.
But considering the retarded wanted of several admins to allow this because 'it gains more players!!!!' at least try to fucking limit it.
I don't understand how the administration can even remotely support streaming except for maybe that charity stream for children hospitals we had once or twice where it was made clear to players why, when and how. Which is an isolated event.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Sniping
I think the issue is that you /don't/ know your audience and you should take the conservative route in a game where information is everything. In terms of the roommate example above, it would be metacommunication if they started getting on their computer to play ss13 /w you and you still let them watch your screen while you're both actively playing.
Personally I don't care about if the streamer gets metagrudged to hell and back, they knew that possibility going into the game and broadcasting it live. My main issue with streaming is that it forcibly opts in others who are trying to play the game legitimately and puts them in situations they wouldn't otherwise have been in because someone is basically permitting real time screen-cheating. In that way, I find that streaming the game shows little consideration for others who are playing the game, making it somewhat bad-faith to begin with.
Personally I don't care about if the streamer gets metagrudged to hell and back, they knew that possibility going into the game and broadcasting it live. My main issue with streaming is that it forcibly opts in others who are trying to play the game legitimately and puts them in situations they wouldn't otherwise have been in because someone is basically permitting real time screen-cheating. In that way, I find that streaming the game shows little consideration for others who are playing the game, making it somewhat bad-faith to begin with.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Dax Dupont
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:07 pm
- Byond Username: DaxYeen
- Github Username: DaxDupont
- Location: Belgium
Re: Sniping
The difference is you KNOW your roommate isn't playing.cedarbridge wrote:Next we should ban for turning around and telling your roommate "Hey, I played this game and thing just happened. Pretty funny right? By your standard, that is metacommunication even though the person being spoken to is not a player and may never become a player. "If I was talking in voice chat where other players may hear" is not the standard. Its either a yes or a no. Are there other players present such that you're actively and intentionally sharing information with them? That's a ban. Are you existing in a discord voice chat while playing without knowledge of any other players? Who the hell is going to try to uphold that ban? Rule 3 bans acts of bad faith to exchange in-game information to other players. You should be able to distinguish this.Dax Dupont wrote:Streaming should be banned fully.
It's a retarded standard to permaban people for metacomms and then go around telling streamers it's okay because they are only broadcasting it.
If I IC in OOC I get first a warning and then escalating bans. If I was actively talking about the round in a voice chat where other SS13 players may hear it I would get banned even though I'm not getting advantages from it.
HOWEVER ITS ALL OKAY IF YOU DO IT ON TWITCH/YT?????
It's an absolute fucking retarded double standard. You can't even argue 'oh it works for other games' because there's almost no other game that has the unique requirements. It's like streaming a poker game but people who are playing can watch it and see each others cards.
But considering the retarded wanted of several admins to allow this because 'it gains more players!!!!' at least try to fucking limit it.
I don't understand how the administration can even remotely support streaming except for maybe that charity stream for children hospitals we had once or twice where it was made clear to players why, when and how. Which is an isolated event.
With streaming you are showing it to people who may(and probably are) be playing
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
We should be concerned about it only to the degree that a the griefers in question are going out of their way to target somebody through OOC information. I'm not sold by the "they knew the risks so they deserve it." line.Cobby wrote:Personally I don't care about if the streamer gets metagrudged to hell and back, they knew that possibility going into the game and broadcasting it live.
- Grazyn
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
- Byond Username: Grazyn
Re: Sniping
"they were asking for it" is indeed a terrible argument.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Sniping
I'm not saying it's okay, i'm saying I care way more about the people they're affecting than them.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
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- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
Re: Sniping
wtf i believe that it's possible for dax to have opinions I agree completely with now????
- Grazyn
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
- Byond Username: Grazyn
Re: Sniping
Banning the streamer is really a stretch though, there's plenty of games that can have rounds ruined by streaming (mafia-like games, town of salem etc. ) and they still don't ban streamers.Cobby wrote:I'm not saying it's okay, i'm saying I care way more about the people they're affecting than them.
Hate the sniper, not the streamer.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Sniping
In Social Games like TOS/Throne of Lies/etc. it's relatively easier to log since you don't see someone do X on the gamescreen, you get text saying "you see X". Even then, it's difficult to claim someone is sniping in those games since there's plenty roles with investigation capabilities and it's literally the job of some roles to frame people regardless of who they are. In SS13 you can also get audio/visual clues, which means if you're not being blatant about it we have to fine tooth comb every log you have and we still might not find anything. Doing that for every sniping claim that isn't "George Melons says 'get rekd (streamer username)'" is going to get annoying real quick real fast. Even just sifting through chat is going to suck tbh.Grazyn wrote:Banning the streamer is really a stretch though, there's plenty of games that can have rounds ruined by streaming (mafia-like games, town of salem etc. ) and they still don't ban streamers.Cobby wrote:I'm not saying it's okay, i'm saying I care way more about the people they're affecting than them.
Hate the sniper, not the streamer.
I don't necessarily "hate" the streamer, but it's extremely difficult to prove sniping or any other meta rule unless they sniper is being blatant about it. I'm willing to bet right now there are people playing who are being influenced ICly by information they obtained OOCly and we don't know it.
If you guys are okay with that risk then fine whatever, but I personally would rather minimize meta opportunities where we can. I think the best option is treat streaming just like metagaming outside of uncommon occasions (such as the charity event) where admins have forward notice and we can PB if needed (assuming the sniper is just joining the server).
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Sniping
Pretty easy to avoid ride-alongs by just having the person streaming not show the top line of the window that shows the server.Cobby wrote:we can PB if needed (assuming the sniper is just joining the server).
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Sniping
Maybe I'm just an old fogey, but I fail to see why SS13 is the kind of game that would be good if streamed live in the first place.
"Alright chat, should I pie this guy? Type 1 for pie and 2 for no pie. I'm getting a lot of ones here. Alright, we're gonna throw a pie at 'em. Let me just type out a message over the radio here to lure him back.... Just got a $10 donation from DIGBICK98, who says we should tie him up and put him in a dress. Type 1 for dress and 2 for no dress. I'm getting a lot of ones here. Alright, we're gonna put a dress on 'em"
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