/tg/Station 13

You're busy sitting in your coder cube plugging away at your Jellybean PR when oranges bursts into your cube and demands you stop what you're working on and do a Heretic rework. Since you don't want to get fired from your prestigious maintainer position, you agree to do it. What do you change?

give me a few weeks to spin up the doc im already planning on it

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm give me a few weeks to spin up the doc im already planning on it

What's your plan

Trim main paths to 5 knowledges each, remove sidepaths as they are (moving into other paths) and instead just have a larger pool of sideknowledges that don't really relate to any specific path but include more gimmicky things over just spells that kill people. I'd also say making sacs the only way to move up the main path whilst points are spent on sideknowledges instead.

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:13 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm give me a few weeks to spin up the doc im already planning on it

What's your plan

You pick a path and start with more shit than you do at present after doing so
Every time you make a sacrifice (up to 4 times) you get the next step on the path (probably 1 active & 1 passive ability)
Every time you collect an Influence you unlock a slot for an additional ability drafted from a pool of abilities shared by all heretics (mostly utility skills) and can have like 3-4 of these (each influence also gives you a respec token or something)
idk what if anything im doing with ascending yet

I want higher lows and lower highs in terms of power, a roundstart heretic shouldnt be mostly a punching bag
It should be somewhat easier to be able to tell what a heretic can actually do by reducing the number of things any individual person can do
You also should never have two full rows of action buttons because that's just horrid

Heretic was originally and intentionally designed as a "high skill ceiling antag for pro players"
this is stupid and not how the game works
i want it to not be a complete crapshoot in terms of how threatening it is, but also keep it differentiated from other antagonists (so not just offering a Heretic Shop you buy stuff from)

probably some other shit, like i said i havent written the document yet

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:19 pm idk what if anything im doing with ascending yet

in whats going to be the worlds least enjoyable zero fun take
drop ascending, legitimately
it makes everyone treat heretics as a ticking nuke because they have the potential to EVENTUALLY be a round-ender, and so a mid-threat antagonist gets the rabid validhunters rushing after em like they're nukeops
if you want heretic to be less of a high-skill-ceiling make them less of a Massive Threat in everyone else's eyes
(itll also make handling them ruleswise easier on mrp i think)

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:23 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:19 pm idk what if anything im doing with ascending yet

in whats going to be the worlds least enjoyable zero fun take
drop ascending, legitimately

not to like turn people against me before I have even started but
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79788

oh yeah handful of other things:

- remove the phobia and replace it with something more fun for both player and heretic
- maybe make tapped influences actually do something path-based
- implement slightly different minigames for each path

none of these are essential for my vision but are nice to haves
i might do the first one like, independent and before any rework

I'd like to hear more about your jellybean PR though

I really love ascensions for heretics, it rounds of the usually pretty good stories each path have with a finale, it would be a shame to see them go. In any case someone sent me a txt file with a bunch of pretty neat heretic ideas so I'll mention that stuff like this idea:
"String Theory – Gives you access to a new spell. This spell can be used on any stunned or any creature in critical condition; does not work on undead or corpses. After a delay one of your arms is blocked by a bunch of strings and the stunned target gets up and begins to obey your orders. This spell can be used to control up to two creatures, one for each blocked hand. When the controlled creature takes enough damage to fall into crit it will be released from the strings."
Is shit I really dig, I love it when an item/spell can be the base for an entire gimmick

I fucking love Heretic’s madman/woman on a tear towards ever-increasing otherworldly power and insanity, tearing rifts in reality itself to harness the latent energy just behind the veil. The Ascension is always the cherry on top of the wonderful little sundae; I’d hate to see it go, hate-hate-hate it!

If I were to rework the antag, however, like the others have said— simplification and smoothing out the power creep would make for a better, more consistent play experience for all but the most experienced. Better start, lesser end; so long as we keep our Ascensions.

You've summoned a piece of the Hill of Rust, and so the Hills welcome you.

just make sacs kill the target, reviving is stupid

I am a enjoyer of heretic and how it is currently, but change is good. I thought the idea of having places where the heretic can do a profane ritual and defile the area in a way based off their path would be awesome. Basically ways for you to be a warlock thats messing with the station without direct murder. Inspired by the painting ability from moon and the door portal ability from knock.

heretic needs more utility abilities instead of just combat shit, late game heretic still does not have the gimmick power available to the cheapest shit in a tot's uplink.

Even ling is better at gimmicks than heretic because ling just gives you survive-ability and no scaling so you can just focus on making those gimmicks.



At the very least heretic should interact more with existing mechanics like ash being able to heat up atmos and chem containers like canisters and beakers.

I'm not the one re-doing the Wiki this time

I rename Void into Winter or Frost because it's so silly that we have both VOID and COSMOS.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:19 pmYou pick a path and start with more shit than you do at present after doing so
Every time you make a sacrifice (up to 4 times) you get the next step on the path (probably 1 active & 1 passive ability)
Every time you collect an Influence you unlock a slot for an additional ability drafted from a pool of abilities shared by all heretics (mostly utility skills) and can have like 3-4 of these (each influence also gives you a respec token or something)
idk what if anything im doing with ascending yet

This all looks great actually.

Please do not touch ascension at all.

Justice12354 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:33 pm I'm not the one re-doing the Wiki this time

Wake up Justice a new heretic pr dropped

Headcoders already asked me to do this once wtf

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:57 pm

Justice12354 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:33 pm I'm not the one re-doing the Wiki this time

Wake up Justice a new heretic pr dropped

Yes m'lord.
Job's done

iansdoor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 5:23 pm

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:57 pm

Justice12354 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:33 pm I'm not the one re-doing the Wiki this time

Wake up Justice a new heretic pr dropped

Yes m'lord.
Job's done

Me not that kind of orc!

original heretic

kill everyone

I would rework the tech tree to be an actual tree and not a grid

What i am coding rn is to tie the mansus grasp to the living heart so sec can actually contain a heretic. The heretic can still get it back on a ritual circle they prepared beforehand

I already told you this on Discord but if this removes your ability to draw the circle you need to get the heart back I will not merge it

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:17 pm I already told you this on Discord but if this removes your ability to draw the circle you need to get the heart back I will not merge it

Just preemptively draw a circle in maints to use when you eventually escape, at least this is how i imagined this nerf would go

I don't think heretics should be the only regularly occuring solo antagonist that you can entirely deconvert into a regular guy

DATAxPUNGED wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:20 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:17 pm I already told you this on Discord but if this removes your ability to draw the circle you need to get the heart back I will not merge it

Just preemptively draw a circle in maints to use when you eventually escape, at least this is how i imagined this nerf would go

Anybody can remove runes with a null rod. Being permanently screwed over like that would suck. I cant see how this is a good idea? Why bother being kept in the round as a heretic if you have had all your heretic stuff removed permanently. Just kill them at that point.

remove heretic

remove BonChoi

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:43 pm I don't think heretics should be the only regularly occuring solo antagonist that you can entirely deconvert into a regular guy

That's fair enough tbh i'll make it so you can still draw it somehow

heretics now explode when they die killing everyone and destroying everything in a 15 tile radius

heretics now have one hp

people who kill a heretic fnr are now permanently banned

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm You're busy sitting in your coder cube plugging away at your Jellybean PR when oranges bursts into your cube and demands you stop what you're working on and do a Heretic rework. Since you don't want to get fired from your prestigious maintainer position, you agree to do it. What do you change?

I remove all of the code because heretics are stupid and leaving gaping wounds in reality all over the station is stupid

Has more than one roundstart heretic been done yet?

Will I have to make a policy thread?

Constellado wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:21 pm Has more than one roundstart heretic been done yet?

Will I have to make a policy thread?

Please do.

vect0r wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:01 am

Constellado wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:21 pm Has more than one roundstart heretic been done yet?

Will I have to make a policy thread?

Please do.

I worry I am going to go insane and start doing a mega rant that is so deranged nobody takes me seriously.

I HAVN'T PLAYED HERETIC IN TWOOO MONTHS.

TWOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
*Implodes*

xzero314 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:53 pm

DATAxPUNGED wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:20 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:17 pm I already told you this on Discord but if this removes your ability to draw the circle you need to get the heart back I will not merge it

Just preemptively draw a circle in maints to use when you eventually escape, at least this is how i imagined this nerf would go

Anybody can remove runes with a null rod. Being permanently screwed over like that would suck. I cant see how this is a good idea? Why bother being kept in the round as a heretic if you have had all your heretic stuff removed permanently. Just kill them at that point.

Janitor should be able to mop away runes, that's like the soul of ss13

i think everyone involved should do their part and hide heretic blades in crates in maints more often

also please do elaborate on the jellybean PR this piques my interest i like jellybeans

I have like two issues with Heretic right now:

1) The funny hand dimension isn't fun or interesting. I like the idea of players being able to fight to come back, but "just dodge the hands" sucks and is not enjoyable and kind of screws over players with high ping.
2) Heretics can kind of just do too much as it is right now. The wiki page isn't up to date, not because nobody has bothered to do it, but because we would need to completely reformat it for it to display correctly due to the current tree being too fucking big as it is. It's becoming harder and harder to remember everything that a Heretic might do, which I guess isn't the end of the world, but it makes fighting them much harder when I don't know if it's a Knock or Cosmic or fucking whatever Heretic.

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:17 pm I have like two issues with Heretic right now:

1) The funny hand dimension isn't fun or interesting. I like the idea of players being able to fight to come back, but "just dodge the hands" sucks and is not enjoyable and kind of screws over players with high ping.
2) Heretics can kind of just do too much as it is right now. The wiki page isn't up to date, not because nobody has bothered to do it, but because we would need to completely reformat it for it to display correctly due to the current tree being too fucking big as it is. It's becoming harder and harder to remember everything that a Heretic might do, which I guess isn't the end of the world, but it makes fighting them much harder when I don't know if it's a Knock or Cosmic or fucking whatever Heretic.

Actually the current wiki IS up to date and has been for a while (since like January).

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:21 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:17 pm I have like two issues with Heretic right now:

1) The funny hand dimension isn't fun or interesting. I like the idea of players being able to fight to come back, but "just dodge the hands" sucks and is not enjoyable and kind of screws over players with high ping.
2) Heretics can kind of just do too much as it is right now. The wiki page isn't up to date, not because nobody has bothered to do it, but because we would need to completely reformat it for it to display correctly due to the current tree being too fucking big as it is. It's becoming harder and harder to remember everything that a Heretic might do, which I guess isn't the end of the world, but it makes fighting them much harder when I don't know if it's a Knock or Cosmic or fucking whatever Heretic.

Actually the current wiki IS up to date and has been for a while (since like January).

Oh, it is. It's a goddamn nightmare to read, though.

Like I really wouldn't mind if we put a stop on all new Heretic paths for a while. I think we're good.

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:23 pm

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:21 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:17 pm I have like two issues with Heretic right now:

1) The funny hand dimension isn't fun or interesting. I like the idea of players being able to fight to come back, but "just dodge the hands" sucks and is not enjoyable and kind of screws over players with high ping.
2) Heretics can kind of just do too much as it is right now. The wiki page isn't up to date, not because nobody has bothered to do it, but because we would need to completely reformat it for it to display correctly due to the current tree being too fucking big as it is. It's becoming harder and harder to remember everything that a Heretic might do, which I guess isn't the end of the world, but it makes fighting them much harder when I don't know if it's a Knock or Cosmic or fucking whatever Heretic.

Actually the current wiki IS up to date and has been for a while (since like January).

Oh, it is. It's a goddamn nightmare to read, though.

Like I really wouldn't mind if we put a stop on all new Heretic paths for a while. I think we're good.

We have a freeze until heretic is refactored/reworked or until the same is done to sidepathing. This was pronounced after we got the latest path.

heretic hand dimension kills people with high ping and is completely trivial to anyone and you have to willingly let yourself die and or have robotic limbs to die in it when you have low ping


seriously i've only died to the hands dimension one time and it was due to my quad amputee character having both of her legs broken and both of her arms malfunctioning it takes THAT MUCH OF A HANDICAP for it to do anything to you (unless you have bad ping in which case you eat 9 of the hands at one time and get vaporized)

So about the jelly beans?

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:17 pm 1) The funny hand dimension isn't fun or interesting. I like the idea of players being able to fight to come back, but "just dodge the hands" sucks and is not enjoyable and kind of screws over players with high ping.

Honestly I'm even hesitant to say it screws over players with high ping, I'm playing on Manuel from Australia and I've never died to the funny hand dimension.

It's kinda just a non-factor most of the time unless you're what someone else said, robo limbs losing the ability to move.

Australians are used to the environment trying to kill them and actually have an unfair advantage in the hell dimension

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm What do you change?

New catgirl themed heretic path

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:32 pm

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm What do you change?

New catgirl themed heretic path

okay hold on everyone be quiet we might have something here

bring back Maid Bots

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:32 pm

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:11 pm What do you change?

New catgirl themed heretic path

go on