2k17 /pol/

[oranges]

Bottom post of the previous page:

it's a serious disease

[ColonicAcid]

There is no way any of those combination can directly affect my life so I don't care about how they want to live, I also think that people are disingenuous when they say "B-but this bullshit harms actual trans folk who suffer and need help!" given how they go out of their way to be as shitty as possible towards trans people (eg. the "attack helicopter" copypasta on leddit which started as a way to make fun of tumblr otherkin but ended up being posted every time someone mentioned trans).

I guess it's a win-win, you constantly treat people like shit and disparage them, they go into depression and kill themselves, and then you can say "See it's a serious disease, it's making them suffer!"

Ding ding ding.

Look an actual reasonable human being why can't some of you atleast be half this reasonable. Also one thing I've noticed (here especially) is if you somehow run out of things to insult someone you have the last word by insulting them and misgendering them. You're like a bunch of fucking Boston fans "b-but m-my 17 trophies (((".

[Malkevin]

Let's be honest here, the world would be a much less complicated place if we just purged it of the non-cis white

[Super Aggro Crag]

Colonic acid you seem both mad and also bad at sports

[ColonicAcid]

SAC calling another person mad.

Now that's what I call music.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Sounds like you got a little too personally invested in the /pol/ thread and had a spergfit and shit up the joint deliberately trying to antagonize me so I would ad hominem you so you can day "see u have no argument I am right u ad hominemed!!!!!!"

Luckily for the sake of discourse I am a wily and clever opponent and saw through your paltry attempts. Maybe you should get over yourself kiddo. Go light a candle to your Cait Jenner altar and meditate on your failure.

[cedarbridge]

they go into depression and kill themselves, and then you can say "See it's a serious disease, it's making them suffer!"

You admitted to being untrained on the subject but felt a need to speak a lot on the subject and managed to be almost entirely wrong. The depression doesn't always or even mostly come from "people made fun of me because I'm different." The depression comes from the dysphoria itself. It shares a similar nature with other disorders like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_inte ... y_disorder . Your brain responds to the body in a manner inconsistent with ownership. You feel "wrong" or "ugly." This is why it became vogue to treat dysphoria with HRT and body modification. The thought was and is that if you can make the body match the form the brain thinks it wants, the wrongness feelings will go away. The problem remains that you're still trying to fix the part that isn't broken. The patient, even with a modified body and adjusted hormones, will still feel the same feelings of "wrongness" and "ugliness" that they felt before but the mind will justify them in a different way. This is what causes the depression, the general dissatisfaction with one's form no matter how it is adjusted and the hopelessness that follows the inability to escape that dissatisfaction.

We don't treat schizophrenia by teaching the patient to have a rationalized discussion with the delusions in their mind telling them to hurt people or that they should kill themselves. We don't treat Cotard's by killing the patient (though they eventually do that on their own without severe intervention.) We don't (usually, dammit Canada) treat BIID by removing arms and legs.

[Luke Cox]

they go into depression and kill themselves, and then you can say "See it's a serious disease, it's making them suffer!"

Well yeah, if they disproportionately kill themselves even in the absence of social pressures something is clearly wrong. A physical abnormality that makes life difficult for physical or psychological reasons is kind of the definition of a disease.

[Grazyn]

they go into depression and kill themselves, and then you can say "See it's a serious disease, it's making them suffer!"

You admitted to being untrained on the subject but felt a need to speak a lot on the subject and managed to be almost entirely wrong. The depression doesn't always or even mostly come from "people made fun of me because I'm different." The depression comes from the dysphoria itself. It shares a similar nature with other disorders like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_inte ... y_disorder . Your brain responds to the body in a manner inconsistent with ownership. You feel "wrong" or "ugly." This is why it became vogue to treat dysphoria with HRT and body modification. The thought was and is that if you can make the body match the form the brain thinks it wants, the wrongness feelings will go away. The problem remains that you're still trying to fix the part that isn't broken. The patient, even with a modified body and adjusted hormones, will still feel the same feelings of "wrongness" and "ugliness" that they felt before but the mind will justify them in a different way. This is what causes the depression, the general dissatisfaction with one's form no matter how it is adjusted and the hopelessness that follows the inability to escape that dissatisfaction.

We don't treat schizophrenia by teaching the patient to have a rationalized discussion with the delusions in their mind telling them to hurt people or that they should kill themselves. We don't treat Cotard's by killing the patient (though they eventually do that on their own without severe intervention.) We don't (usually, dammit Canada) treat BIID by removing arms and legs.

It's all really interesting but my point is that these guys who pretend to care so much about trans mental health also take every chance they get to call them degenerates and be generally shitty in every way possible towards them. I don't think that's how you treat them

[lntigracy]

I only see it done to ones that force their view of the world on everyone else around them.

Waah I'm offended stop using that word and that word.

[cedarbridge]

It's all really interesting but my point is that these guys who pretend to care so much about trans mental health also take every chance they get to call them degenerates and be generally shitty in every way possible towards them. I don't think that's how you treat them

That depends on who is being called a degenerate and for what reason. I've called many people who announce that they are "trans" as being complete degenerates. They're not bad people for having a mental disorder. They're bad people for attempting to mainstream and normalize a mental disorder. I have no patience for people who normalize mental illness. If somebody has an illness it should be treated and their condition resolved to the furthest extent that medical and psychological practice will allow. The modern trend is becoming to celebrate that one has a mental illness and to advocate for the treatments that enhance the visibility of the problem without actually treating the disorder. Boards like /lgbt/ and large sections of Tumblr are the worst for shit like that. The amount of pressure they put on confused and vulnerable people is staggering. I get the same sick feeling reading somebody pressuring a young man or woman into the wpath system that I get seeing these quack medical forums where people taking medications give each other advice on how to best alter their prescriptions without consulting their doctor first.

Untrained people should not be giving psychological advice in the same way that untrained people shouldn't be performing liver transplants. Instead we have a culture where mental illness is something that everyone has an opinion on and where the opinions of people with those disorders is taken as gospel by non-sufferers.

[Drynwyn]

I think your'e straight up wrong, cedar.

Many people do report dramatically better QoL after they undergo transitional surgery or start passing as their preferred gender. This isn't universally the case, to be sure, but in a large number of cases, it is. I don't have time to do a full dive into the scientific literature right now, as finals are soon for me, but I believe you don't have sufficient evidence to support what you're saying as truth. (I'm also not saying that the other side for-sure does, either- I'm saying you're taking what is currently a topic without solid scientific consensus and presenting one hypothesis as the unvarnished truth.)

[Luke Cox]

Is anyone here calling them degenerates? Maybe Crag a little but it's pretty obvious that he's half shitposting.

I think your'e straight up wrong, cedar.

Many people do report dramatically better QoL after they undergo transitional surgery or start passing as their preferred gender. This isn't universally the case, to be sure, but in a large number of cases, it is. I don't have time to do a full dive into the scientific literature right now, as finals are soon for me, but I believe you don't have sufficient evidence to support what you're saying as truth. (I'm also not saying that the other side for-sure does, either- I'm saying you're taking what is currently a topic without solid scientific consensus and presenting one hypothesis as the unvarnished truth.)

I don't think anyone here disagrees that transitional surgery is the best option available to them. The problem is that it's extremely dangerous, irreversible, and generally far from ideal. It only alleviates the problem somewhat too.

[Super Aggro Crag]

If youre on the internet you are a degenerate, no exceptions.

[cedarbridge]

I think your'e straight up wrong, cedar.

Many people do report dramatically better QoL after they undergo transitional surgery or start passing as their preferred gender. This isn't universally the case, to be sure, but in a large number of cases, it is. I don't have time to do a full dive into the scientific literature right now, as finals are soon for me, but I believe you don't have sufficient evidence to support what you're saying as truth. (I'm also not saying that the other side for-sure does, either- I'm saying you're taking what is currently a topic without solid scientific consensus and presenting one hypothesis as the unvarnished truth.)

"You're straight up wrong." "I have no citations for why you're wrong but you are." "I don't have evidence that a counterfactual position is correct."
A+ rhetoric. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

"Dramatically better QoL" and "freedom from illness" are entirely different things. Johns Hopkins University pioneered reassignment treatments in the US. There's a reason that Johns Hopkins doesn't do reassignment surgery anymore. Those reasons are the ones I outlined before. Patients undergoing the operations required to "transition" reported high rates of satisfaction with the result and might even report high levels of increased social esteem. What they don't report is a reduction in the symptoms of the illness. You literally do not fix a mental illness by changing everything except the brain. You do not treat a mental illness by treating it as normal and pretending it wasn't an illness all along.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that transitional surgery is the best option available to them. The problem is that it's extremely dangerous, irreversible, and generally far from ideal. It only alleviates the problem somewhat too.

I definitely disagree that transitional surgery is the "best" option or even a "good" option in 99% of cases. In fact, there is a significant mortal effect on patients post op suicide rate. Like I said earlier. Many cases, the patient will "transition" and then realize they don't actually feel right that way either and then just end it to escape the confusion after all of the expenses and hormone cocktails. Dysphoria is also very comorbid with alcoholism and drug abuse so those tend to go hand in hand quite a bit in the downward freefall.

[Malkevin]

So... dem mooslims yeah?

Another one of the smelly beardy bastards tried to go on a stabbing spree in london today.

[cedarbridge]

So... dem mooslims yeah?

Another one of the smelly beardy bastards tried to go on a stabbing spree in london today.

Clearly the knife bins just aren't keeping up.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Did he stab any transgenders?

[Luke Cox]

Just a part of life in a big city, right?

[XSI]

Better get used to it
I heard London now has a special task force to make sure you don't get to say islamophobic things after another every day city life terror attack

[ColonicAcid]

"You're straight up wrong." "I have no citations for why you're wrong but you are." "I don't have evidence that a counterfactual position is correct."
A+ rhetoric. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

bruh shit outta here nigga you can't talk about giving sources when all you've done is link two wikipedia pages.

for real

[Drynwyn]

I think your'e straight up wrong, cedar.


"You're straight up wrong." "I have no citations for why you're wrong but you are." "I don't have evidence that a counterfactual position is correct."
A+ rhetoric. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

"I think you're straight up wrong". Those first two words are important- I'm evincing an opinion, not claiming that I have conclusive evidence. All either of us has done is spew anecdotal evidence at each other, neither of us has conclusively demonstrated anything. To clarify: I don't have evidence for my position, you don't have evidence for yours.

I'm busy with academics right now, so I don't have time to go on a literature dive, but once finals wrap up in a couple weeks I will return with citations.

[oranges]

"You're straight up wrong." "I have no citations for why you're wrong but you are." "I don't have evidence that a counterfactual position is correct."
A+ rhetoric. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

Except most of what you said was unsourced with no citations either, so don't throw stones in a glass house

[Super Aggro Crag]

Citing things is fucking retarded in this current political climate because if someone disagrees with you they're just going to call your citation nazi falsehoods or globalist Islamic deception. Trying to one up each other over who can cite the most studies is just dumb you're better off just calling each other faggots until one of you gets mad and finds something else to do.

[cedarbridge]

"You're straight up wrong." "I have no citations for why you're wrong but you are." "I don't have evidence that a counterfactual position is correct."
A+ rhetoric. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

Except most of what you said was unsourced with no citations either, so don't throw stones in a glass house

I mean, I could cite my undergrad transcripts but who wants that shit.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchug ... 1402615120 Here's the doctor I was referencing but I couldn't pull his article on my phone.

[Drynwyn]

An op-ed by a single doctor =/= a scientific source.

[cedarbridge]

An op-ed by a single doctor =/= a scientific source.

You'd move the goalposts no matter where it was put. The fact that you just call him "a single doctor" like he's some nobody means you should stop.

[Drynwyn]

An op-ed by a single doctor =/= a scientific source.

You'd move the goalposts no matter where it was put. The fact that you just call him "a single doctor" like he's some nobody means you should stop.

Okay, no. Saying one op-ed by one person- whatever degree that person may have- is not a scientific source is not moving the goalposts. A scientific consensus would be represented by a review article or oft-cited primary source article published in a respectable journal. There's your goalposts for establish a scientific fact about psychology.

[oranges]

Citing things is fucking retarded in this current political climate because if someone disagrees with you they're just going to call your citation nazi falsehoods or globalist Islamic deception. Trying to one up each other over who can cite the most studies is just dumb you're better off just calling each other faggots until one of you gets mad and finds something else to do.

this is nazi falsehood

[K-64]

I thought citations were to throw at people when you interpret what they say wrongly and they support the opposition's side when you spend more than 2 seconds reading it?

[Super Aggro Crag]

Who is that

[ColonicAcid]

I thought citations were to throw at people when you interpret what they say wrongly and they support the opposition's side when you spend more than 2 seconds reading it?

it's a well known fact that anything but the abstract at the start and the discussion at the end is just random gibberish that people put in as filler.

[bandit]

periodic reminder the DSM is basically wikipedia for psychologists i.e. assembling the thing is a giant clusterfuck of arguments and controversy, and what constitutes a "mental disorder" is more a reflection of who won the argument at the point in time of the revision. example: up until 1973 homosexuality was listed (citation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4695779/)

[XSI]

I mean
If you count "mental disorder" as anything that isn't "normal", then yeah, homosexuality is a disorder. But then so is watching anime and shitposting online instead of doing society-approved stuff (That are not disorders) like going to the movies(That you don't like and will regret paying for) and drinking yourself into a coma every week

[oranges]

Only a sith deals in absolutes

[Luke Cox]

Does anyone disagree with the following definition of a mental disorder: Any neurological or behavioral abnormality that causes a decrease in quality of life for its sufferer, for non-societal reasons?

[oranges]

Does anyone disagree with the following definition of a mental disorder: Any neurological or behavioral abnormality that causes a decrease in quality of life for its sufferer, for non-societal reasons?

[Luke Cox]

You're not answering the question because you know that if you say yes, gender dysphoria fits it to T and if you say no, you're in opposition to all of modern medicine

[oranges]

Who is arguing that gender dysphoria isn't a mental disorder?

[FantasticFwoosh]

No diagnosis given by a doctor/psychologist could be 100% accurate about something as subjective of how someone feels like they are another gender or are suffering depersonalisation to be another gender (like the people who get in cribs and act like babies) outward physically the medical professional could say one hundred percent that you are either male/female or both (in that you have both forms of working genetalia) neither ( born without genitals) or any other kind of disfigurement.

Im not pretty sure a doctor could MRI scan you on the spot or take your claim utmost seriously (given harm about x-ray etc. and nessecity to spend time on more critical patients depending on circumstances) The difference is that these people self-diagnose themselves open to poor logic & reasoning than a medical professional's list of experience and training (and even they can be wrong but are otherwise reliable to be close enough to the issue to investigate further).

[oranges]

mate that's tumblr

[Luke Cox]

Any self-respecting Brit would use a longbow

[Super Aggro Crag]

The English use a billhook

[DemonFiren]

I know this is digg tripe but I want this to be real

Yes, please.

[ShadowDimentio]

The republicans repealed Obamacare the absolute madmen

*Read: Got the bill through the house

[Luke Cox]

What's the difference between the new bill and the previous one that the GOP rejected?

[onleavedontatme]

http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/201 ... ummary.pdf

The first bill didn't let insurers charge more for pre-existing conditions, but they could charge people with a lapse in coverage 30% more when they got insurance again.

The amendment lets states get a waiver for this pre-existing condition requirement "conditional upon the State operating a risk mitigation
program or participating in a Federal Invisible Risk Sharing Program (FIRSP)."

[Ricotez]

I'm laughing at this hypocrisy, they hated Obamacare, but not so much that they want the new restrictions to apply to themselves

[FantasticFwoosh]

Cosmicscientist, the EU duels would probably make watchable anime.

[XSI]

Of course, the laws don't apply to them
They make laws for you, plebian. Now sit down and take it

[FantasticFwoosh]

Napoleon being short (while actually being a propaganda lie) is a meme that has persisted to this day.

Memes, meme warfare never changes.