2k17 /pol/

[Luke Cox]

Bottom post of the previous page:

My issue with people who deny that it's a disorder is that they're fucking over people who actually suffer from it. It's not some cutesy thing that makes you special and unique, it's a crippling disorder that ruins lives. There is nothing beautiful or trendy about it. The medical community should be looking for less invasive alternatives to HRT and gender reassignment surgery, not normalizing them.

[lntigracy]

gender dysphoria is currently massively overdiagnosed and trendy and you can't criticize any fucking trans persons behavior without getting a no true Scotsman fallacy.

I love you SAC.

[Super Aggro Crag]

You called me shit the other day intrigravy!!!!!! I won't forget that!!!!!

[oranges]

So does shadow believe in it or not I'm so confused

[Super Aggro Crag]

He's on too many levels of irony to have beliefs

[ColonicAcid]

Itt: armchair psychologists attempt to right the scientific wrongs with no ketchup or mayonnaise.

I have more luck going into uni finding the nearest psychology first year and asking theme about this than reading any of the shit I've seen here.

News alert: not all transgendered people were or are depressed and not all transgendered people have suicidal thoughts. Even more news flash: social ostricisation due to being transgender is the leading cause of depression and suicide. But I'll do what you guys aren't doing and actually pull up some sources. You ready for actual science and not whatever the SHIT any of you are doing?

Bauer, G. R., Scheim. A. I., Pyne, J., Travers, R., & Hammond, R. (2015). Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons: a respondent driven sampling study in Ontario, Canada. BMC Public Health, 15. doi: 10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

"Transgender people who express low internalized transphobia are 66% less likely to have suicidal ideation than people who express high levels of internalized transphobia. Among those with suicidal ideation, low internalized transphobia was associated with a 76% decrease in attempts."

"Transgender people who had social or parental support of their transgender identities have significantly less suicidal ideation, meaning they are less likely to seriously consider suicide. Of those who seriously considered suicide, those with strong support were 82% less likely to attempt suicide than those without support."

"Transgender people whose identification documents matched their gender identity are substantially less likely to seriously consider or attempt suicide."

Clements-Nolle, K., Marx, R., & Katz, M. (2006). Attempted suicide among transgender persons. Journal of Homosexuality, 51, 53-69. doi: 10.1300/J082v51n03_04

"Transgender people who are younger than 25 years old are more likely to attempt suicide.
Transgender people who are depressed are more likely to attempt suicide.
Transgender people with a history of substance abuse are more likely to attempt suicide.
Transgender people who have been sexually assaulted are more likely to attempt suicide."

"The more a transgender person has experienced gender-based discrimination and gender-based victimization/violence, the more at risk they are for attempting suicide."

Honestly buddies if you are still adamant about the fact that this is truly a problem with them and not the problem of people being absolute fucking cunts when it comes to dealing wit has transgendered people you are the problem as well.

To add onto this, transgendered people that are more often misgendered due to facial features etc "Transgender people who report being easily identifiable as trans (either through consistent self-disclosure or being visibly trans) are more likely to seriously consider or attempt suicide, when compared to transgender people who report not being regularly perceived as transgender."


And perhaps the nail in the coffin to this fucking argument is that transgender of colour have a significantly higher suicide rate than transgenders that are white. I wonder why that is, it must be because black people have the suicide gene, not because they are marginalised due to both their sex and their skin colour.


Jesus Christ you fucking weapons. You actually made me have to search for this garbage as well. They're all real sources, use Sci-hub.cc to find them and actually read them before you state stupid shit again.

[ColonicAcid]

And I'm not fucking anyone over shut your stupid suburban mouth.


You treat shit like this as a disease and people look at trans and gay and drug addicts as if they're defunct. They're like plague victims except somehow "self inflicted". You don't fix shit. You make it worse. Look at what happened when drug addicts were not seen as mentally ill but as actual people in unforseen circumstances. Look at that and see if their survival rates didn't go higher. You're operating on a fucking homogenous medieval train of thought that anybody who does the think like you or look like you must be broken and need fixing.

[Super Aggro Crag]

If transgenders are so oppressed why don't they claim refugee status, move to Sweden and get free everything

:^)

[Super Aggro Crag]

Colonic acid, do you mind if I call you "Colin"? For short?

[lntigracy]

How come people weren't committing suicide as much using transgenderism as an excuse except in the last decade or so

[Super Aggro Crag]

You don't need an excuse to commit suicide dude lol.

Like damn "sorry teach dog ate my homework brb gonna buy some rope"

Freal durst! What you THINKING?

[lntigracy]

I'm so sad that I can't find the image of the trans-tiger guy who got an automaton tail and the gender change surgery and all the other shit he could and then still ended up committing suicide.

Maybe helping the people with a problem instead of encouraging them would make a difference. It's only recently that people are encouraged to go down the path of permanently altering themselves.

Don't make me commit murder suicide buddy.
I'll kill myself then you, in that order.

[cedarbridge]

As somebody with actual psych training, the "it was abnormal before so it will be normal in the future who knows xd" thing is really fucking dangerous thinking. It also depends really heavily on the idea that "I think therefore I am" is anything more than Descartes having a good thing too long. Your body can be right when your brain is wrong. That's the basis of psychology and psychopathology. The second that we go down the road of making the body match the mind when the mind is in clear error, is the exact second that psychology is dead.

[ShadowDimentio]

I'd believe it. Progressive sorts are so busy trying to cozy up to Islam that hating Jews is only natual, since of course the brown people couldn't do anything wrong in the Israel-Arab conflicts.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Disagreeing with anything Israel does makes you an antisemite is a classic tactic (((they))) use to silence anyone who opposes their genocide of the indigenous people of Palestine.

Another tactic (((these people))) like to use is an appeal to the underdog loving freedommen by drawing a map and coloring Israel a nice happy color and all those MEAN OL MUSLINS a different color and saying some shit about david and goliath. The parable loses a bit of bite if David had billions of dollars in support from (((America))) and a main battle tank and goliath was armed with merely a rock.

[oranges]

As somebody with actual psych training, the "it was abnormal before so it will be normal in the future who knows xd" thing is really fucking dangerous thinking. It also depends really heavily on the idea that "I think therefore I am" is anything more than Descartes having a good thing too long. Your body can be right when your brain is wrong. That's the basis of psychology and psychopathology. The second that we go down the road of making the body match the mind when the mind is in clear error, is the exact second that psychology is dead.

but what if it's easier to change the body to fit the mind? C/O gene editing or other advanced science.

[Luke Cox]

*completely missing the point*

Nobody ever said that social ostricisation makes it worse. What we (and all serious research on the topic for that matter) are saying is that even in the absence of social stigmias, people with gender dysphoria disproportionately suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts. Social acceptance helps, but it doesn't eliminate it. Those sources do jack shit to dismiss the notion that gender dysphoria is a neurological disorder. It could also be argued that the depression that comes with gender dysphoria makes ostricisation mote mentally damaging to them. You never answered my previous question either: why is it that similarly stigmatized groups don't also see spikes in suicide rates on the same level? Homosexuals should have seen similar suicide rates in the past if what you're saying is true.

You have absolutely zero understanding of how psychiatry works. Going by your meme-tier logic, I suppose we can just hug clinical depression away too.

As somebody with actual psych training, the "it was abnormal before so it will be normal in the future who knows xd" thing is really fucking dangerous thinking. It also depends really heavily on the idea that "I think therefore I am" is anything more than Descartes having a good thing too long. Your body can be right when your brain is wrong. That's the basis of psychology and psychopathology. The second that we go down the road of making the body match the mind when the mind is in clear error, is the exact second that psychology is dead.

but what if it's easier to change the body to fit the mind?

Currently, it is. Gender-reassignment surgery and HRT are pretty much the only options. That doesn't mean that it's "normal".

[oranges]

Currently, it is. Gender-reassignment surgery and HRT are pretty much the only options. That doesn't mean that it's "normal".

What point are you trying to make here?

[Luke Cox]

Currently, it is. Gender-reassignment surgery and HRT are pretty much the only options. That doesn't mean that it's "normal".

What point are you trying to make here?

Not really trying to make a point there, more answering your rhetorical question. The current treatment options for gender dysphoria are far from ideal. Best case scenario would be some kind of pill that reduces the feelings of anxiety or depression. Granted, I doubt anything that simple would work.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Currently, it is. Gender-reassignment surgery and HRT are pretty much the only options. That doesn't mean that it's "normal".

What point are you trying to make here?

His point is that if we just stuck with the first treatment we came up with that worked we'd have a shitload more people getting limbs amputated and skulls trepanated and leech sales would skyrocket.

Just because something works doesn't mean medical science should be afraid to research alternatives out of fear of getting death threats from tumblr.

[oranges]

lets pose a though experiment, if we have the ability to modify the body at will with zero ill effects why shouldn't we mould it to match what the mind desires at any given time? Has not the entirety of human existence evolved via a drive to shape the environment we exist in to match our self and mind?

[oranges]

Currently, it is. Gender-reassignment surgery and HRT are pretty much the only options. That doesn't mean that it's "normal".

What point are you trying to make here?

His point is that if we just stuck with the first treatment we came up with that worked we'd have a shitload more people getting limbs amputated and skulls trepanated and leech sales would skyrocket.

Just because something works doesn't mean medical science should be afraid to research alternatives out of fear of getting death threats from tumblr.

Right, but nobody was making that argument as far as I can tell so I'm not sure why it needed to be said.

[Super Aggro Crag]

You're conflating helping someone deal with gender dysphoria by changing their outward appearance with becoming a transgenic monstrosity. I'm on to you, citrus. You're just trying to get catgirls in real life.

[oranges]

I'm saying that if the means exist to do it it's obvious we should modify our bodies to fit whatever our desires might be, as much as they are a construct of culture and social exposure. Nearly every bit of science we do is intended to bring us benefits in interacting with and shaping our environment to suit, so there shouldn't be any difference when applied to the human body as a shell for our consciousness.

Hey if people want to be cat people and they can do it with no ill effect on themself or on society as a whole who are we to interpose ourselves in their business?

Gender dysphoria is just one obvious example of this mismatch.

[Super Aggro Crag]

>no detrimental effect on society
>catgirls

Ok (((oranges))) I guess I'm just on the wrong side of history on this one

[oranges]

>no detrimental effect on society
>catgirls

Ok (((oranges))) I guess I'm just on the wrong side of history on this one

What detrimental effects would you expect it to have? Most existing body modification that is socially acceptable currently does not have any noticeable external effects on other people

[Super Aggro Crag]

Dander allergies you tart.

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm saying that if the means exist to do it it's obvious we should modify our bodies to fit whatever our desires might be, as much as they are a construct of culture and social exposure. Nearly every bit of science we do is intended to bring us benefits in interacting with and shaping our environment to suit, so there shouldn't be any difference when applied to the human body as a shell for our consciousness.

Hey if people want to be cat people and they can do it with no ill effect on themself or on society as a whole who are we to interpose ourselves in their business?

We're getting a bit philosophical here but the problem of gender reassignment surgery is that 1: It's expensive 2: It's extremely unhealthy and 3: It doesn't work. If you were transgender and surgery made you feel happy, sure man go nuts I'm not stopping you. Those are the lucky ones though, an extremely large amount of transgender people go through the surgery, spending a fortune and literally tearing their bodies apart in the process and feel no better on the other side.

So basically do what you want but the cure to gender dysphoria isn't to fix your body, it's to fix your mind.

[oranges]

Hmm I suppose that could be an issue, but we don't ban peanuts even though people have peanut allergies, instead we develop systems to accommodate and rely on the allergic person to manage the allergy, I imagine it would also be the case given people with allergies to cats. That's assuming that it even expresses that particular gene.

[ShadowDimentio]

Having an allergic reaction isn't a psychological condition, it's physiological. You can't go to therapy for it and get better. Gender dysphoria is. The two aren't comparable aside from how they're both medical conditions.

I have no idea what's going on ok

[XSI]

I'm so sad that I can't find the image of the trans-tiger guy who got an automaton tail and the gender change surgery and all the other shit he could and then still ended up committing suicide.

Internet detective go!

Spoiler:

[oranges]

I'm saying that if the means exist to do it it's obvious we should modify our bodies to fit whatever our desires might be, as much as they are a construct of culture and social exposure. Nearly every bit of science we do is intended to bring us benefits in interacting with and shaping our environment to suit, so there shouldn't be any difference when applied to the human body as a shell for our consciousness.

Hey if people want to be cat people and they can do it with no ill effect on themself or on society as a whole who are we to interpose ourselves in their business?

We're getting a bit philosophical here but the problem of gender reassignment surgery is that 1: It's expensive 2: It's extremely unhealthy and 3: It doesn't work. If you were transgender and surgery made you feel happy, sure man go nuts I'm not stopping you. Those are the lucky ones though, an extremely large amount of transgender people go through the surgery, spending a fortune and literally tearing their bodies apart in the process and feel no better on the other side.

So basically do what you want but the cure to gender dysphoria isn't to fix your body, it's to fix your mind.

Given the serious physiological changes that the surgery entails I don't think anyone suggests entering into it lightly and I suspect the criteria to qualify are quite stringent (I can only speak to local requirements, which require doctors and psychiatrists to be involved), this isn't a tool that's being reached for lightly, it's a tool of last resort for many people so I don't understand the supposed outcry over the issue from that perspective, even if the chances of success are low it's better than doing nothing after exhausting all other options.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Having an allergic reaction isn't a psychological condition, it's physiological. You can't go to therapy for it and get better. Gender dysphoria is. The two aren't comparable aside from how they're both medical conditions.

I have no idea what's going on ok

Get on our fucking shitpost level, kid.

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm not /forum savvy/ enough to keep track of multiple conversations going on in the same thread without reply quotes ok

[ShadowDimentio]

Given the serious physiological changes that the surgery entails I don't think anyone suggests entering into it lightly and I suspect the criteria to qualify are quite stringent (I can only speak to local requirements, which require doctors and psychiatrists to be involved), this isn't a tool that's being reached for lightly, it's a tool of last resort for many people so I don't understand the supposed outcry over the issue from that perspective, even if the chances of success are low it's better than doing nothing after exhausting all other options.

That might just be for you over in Kiwi Land, but in places like Canada it's absolutely laughably easy to get gender reassignment surgery, and supposedly if your doctor's like "Woah shit wait hold on pal, this is a big procedure I really think you should consider other options first" you can sue them for denying you required medical services and maybe even discrimination too.

I heard a talk between Sargon and Professor Jordan Peterson (a psychologist) like last week, and how Peterson as a Canadian was sad about the direction the government was taking in erasing gender dysphoria as a mental condition, and how he expected in 20 or so years once all the progressives sorts going through with life-altering surgeries as adolescents without fully comprehending the gravity of the decision they were making were going to sue the shit out of doctors and such over it for ruining their lives.

[Luke Cox]

People can do whatever the fuck they want to their bodies, I honestly don't care so long as they are adults who are fully aware of and acknowledge the consequences. What I have an issue with is people with what is essentially a mental disorder being told that nothing at all is wrong. It's pure pseudoscience.

[cedarbridge]

As somebody with actual psych training, the "it was abnormal before so it will be normal in the future who knows xd" thing is really fucking dangerous thinking. It also depends really heavily on the idea that "I think therefore I am" is anything more than Descartes having a good thing too long. Your body can be right when your brain is wrong. That's the basis of psychology and psychopathology. The second that we go down the road of making the body match the mind when the mind is in clear error, is the exact second that psychology is dead.

but what if it's easier to change the body to fit the mind? C/O gene editing or other advanced science.

Easier doesn't mean better. If you "change the body to fit the mind" you're putting a bandaid over a bullet wound. Johns Hopkins discovered this long ago. While patients going through HRT and gender reassignment report feeling "satisfied" with their bodies post-op, it didn't actually change their symptoms. When you prescribe a treatment that doesn't actually treat the problem its a useless treatment. This goes double for something as invasive as HRT/GR and comorbid with as many other shitty add-on effects that it makes you wonder why people even bother.

Naturally the most common reason why people bother is because they're pressured. Especially in recent years its become quite in vogue for non-psychologists to pressure anyone who even hints as possibly having dysphoria to get on the HRT bandwagon as soon and early as possible "before its too late." This is especially common around 15-16. Its also a really dangerous time to go tinkering with a kid's hormone levels for obvious reasons.

Given the serious physiological changes that the surgery entails I don't think anyone suggests entering into it lightly and I suspect the criteria to qualify are quite stringent (I can only speak to local requirements, which require doctors and psychiatrists to be involved), this isn't a tool that's being reached for lightly, it's a tool of last resort for many people so I don't understand the supposed outcry over the issue from that perspective, even if the chances of success are low it's better than doing nothing after exhausting all other options.

It is true that there are many steps that are generally placed between "I feel off" to body modification, the standard practice is that the patient's desires override and those patients, as mentioned above, are being pressured from outside to constantly take the next step even if that next step is to nowhere.

[XSI]

I liked the brexit phase of /pol/ stuff

I hope we can shitpost frexit soon, but I'm not sure if we will

[oranges]

I predict a macron win

[Luke Cox]

Everyone is acting like Le Pen is done. Everyone acted like Trump was done.

[oranges]

Well that's why they call them predictions

[Luke Cox]

Point is, people are dismissing Le Pen way too quickly. France has seen a wave of terror attacks, and she has the harshest stance on it by far. Her opponent has gone on the record saying "that's just how it is" and doesn't appear to plan to do anything about it. Macron is a modern aristocrat. The French version of Hillary Clinton. Le Pen has a lot of unpalatable positions, but they beat being shot.

[ShadowDimentio]

News? Trump might break up the 9th District Court. Jesus christ, imagine the mayhem.

[DemonFiren]

Macron is a modern aristocrat.

That's Fillon.

[Drynwyn]

Christ, that's a lot of arguing about gender/transexuals. Here's my opinion:

a) There is biological sex

b) There is gender, which is a complex sociological construct.

c) In an ideal world, we would not feel the need to place labels on how people behave based upon their biological sex.

d) We don't live in an ideal world. There are a huge number of social norms and demands that swing into play based on whether you are perceived as male or female, most of which are centered around, or convenient for, heterosexual procreation and romance. This is not shocking, because the majority of any given society has always participated in that activity. That structure is not "evil", and one does not have a negative duty to refrain from following it's norms. However....

e) For people who don't fit into the social norms expected of their biological sex, it broadly makes more sense from their perspective to switch genders, rather than switching the expectations of society. These people ought not be denied the opportunity to do so if they so wish it. Depending on what ethical system you follow, you may believe that you and others have a positive duty to alter society's norms to the ideal world described in c).


That was rambling and messy, so I'm going to simplify it to a quick argument:

P1) Although in an ideal world this would not be the case, our society places significant obligations and expectations on people based upon their perceived sex (male or female).
P2) For some people, the obligations places upon their sex are significantly more onerous than those placed upon the other sex.
C) For some people, it makes self-interested sense to switch their gender for their own benefit, even though there would be no need for such a thing in (a certain conception of an) ideal world.

[DemonFiren]

That requires getting society to care about gender, which seems much more difficult than just not giving a fuck about society's bullshit expectations.

[XSI]

French election is a mess
Like every other election

[Luke Cox]

If Le Pen does end up winning, the EU is finished. She'll hold a referendum on France's EU membership, and if she has enough support to win a referendum will pass. That'll be Europe's 2nd and 3rd biggest economies out of the EU in quick succession. Outside of Germany and Sweden, they won't have a lot going for them.

[Grazyn]

My relatively uncultured opinion on the Bill Nye thing (which I didn't even watch):

There is biological sex, that's in your DNA, it can get messed up from birth defects and stuff but it's usually male and female, XX and XY.
There is sexual phenotype/appearance, which is what you look like (eg. that disease from House MD where you look like a female but are biologically male, or extensive body modification).
There is gender identity, which is the sex you think matches yourself, the "I identify as male" thing.
There is sexual preference, which is who you like to fuck (other males, females, people who dress up as cats).

You can have any weird combination of the above, eg. girl who only looks like a girl because she has that disease and is actually XY, who identifies as a male and wears male clothing, but likes to fuck women because why not.

There is no way any of those combination can directly affect my life so I don't care about how they want to live, I also think that people are disingenuous when they say "B-but this bullshit harms actual trans folk who suffer and need help!" given how they go out of their way to be as shitty as possible towards trans people (eg. the "attack helicopter" copypasta on leddit which started as a way to make fun of tumblr otherkin but ended up being posted every time someone mentioned trans).

I guess it's a win-win, you constantly treat people like shit and disparage them, they go into depression and kill themselves, and then you can say "See it's a serious disease, it's making them suffer!"

[DrPillzRedux]

it's a serious disease

[oranges]

it's a serious disease