/tg/Station 13

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Sybil 2019-09-01 13:45:37
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: account Dorkenstein, character Rat Man
Admin: NecromancerAnne
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 117588
Detailed summary:

I've dealt with a few admins before that I didn't agree with, admins who made me very angry. But this admin [NecromancerAnne] is just a terrible admin, the kind of admin that bans according to personal feelings, makes people stop respecting admins and rules in general, the kind of admin you definitely don't want representing a server. It's not that I'm even that angry about this ban(not even gonna appeal), but I feel like what they did was so stupid that it would be easy to spend 10 minutes bringing this to your attention.

First, this admin randomly and rudely started questioning me, saying things like, "Do you know who [my other account] is? Because I sure do", "Why did you feel the need to make a new account, don't lie to me"

First of all, if I've broken a rule, just tell me what I did wrong, if not, get to the fucking point. Is having 2 accounts against the rules now? What's with the questioning anyway? If you knew who I was then why did you ask me in the first place? In case you didn't, then thanks for rewarding my honestly with a toxic attitude and a ban.

Anyways, I tried explaining to them I made a new account because of certain people in OOC harassing me, which didn't matter because the admin had already made up their mind to begin with, and the supposed "reasoning" behind the ban has no basis on anything that was discussed, anyway. So why waste my time with a snotty interrogation? Again, get to the point. If me using a 2nd account is a problem, then like I told NecromancerAnne, I have no problem sticking to one account, if that is what you want. But no, that wasn't good enough.

As for why they banned me, I attached the screenshot. Supposedly I was "greytiding" and "avoiding punishment", but no rules were cited to me or in the ban description. Apparently hacking doors and taking stuff is now against the rules(?)

As for the "avoiding punishment", I was banned the other day (irrelevant), the 24-hour ban had already expired, and I had already been playing on the unbanned account for several rounds after being unbanned. So tell me how I was "avoiding punishment" when I was already unbanned, and had clearly been using the other account after that without getting in any trouble.

They[NecromancerAnne] said, "To me it feels[note: -feels-] like they are maliciously attempting to avoid punishment and hiding their history". They gave me a week(!) long ban on my main account and permabanned my second account. So again, tell me what rules I broke "maliciously" (None), tell me how I was "avoiding punishment" (what punishment am I avoiding exactly?) and "hiding my history" when I willingly admitted to being the same person. Finally, tell me how you decided to come up with 7 days as an appropriate punishment.

I would like to see how you could POSSIBLY defend the fact that you banned me based on a "feeling" that goes against all logic, and has absolutely zero justification according to the rules. You didn't even TRY, which is why you make it so easy to expose what a terrible admin you are. I sincerely hope you get removed before you learn how to properly abuse your power.

Dorkenstein wrote: Is having 2 accounts against the rules now?

Yes, It is. We typically ask people to stick to one account, typically the one with a record on the server. While it's possible to change main account for various reasons (like a old account and forgetting the password) it isn't unusual for us to perma the alt account and remind players to stick to one account.

As Gigapuddi has already explained, it is against the rules. If you truly have been experiencing something like harassment, you should be making admins aware of it. I had no record of this in your notes. So I am not even sure I believe you.

Otherwise, what happened today looks very, very bad on you as a player when, on a new account, you come into the round already doing some fairly antagonistic behaviour, which literally the day prior you had been doing as well and was banned for bad escalation in the captain's office while playing on your first account. This reeks of someone trying to evade their own history to keep griefing.

You call it general tiding but I would see breaking into the captain's office and stealing his personal firearm (a traitor objective), breaking into the armory and stealing guns (to which you were mercifully dragged out from by the HoP, to then go and shooting two station pets include the HoP's as he is standing right next to Ian and then firing on the HoP with a disabler when he pursues you as self-antagging and griefing for no reason other than to be a complete arsehole for no reason.

For the record, your main account is zombiechill, which has a very, very long history of poor behaviour. Like, a really bad history of you outright killing people for almost no reason. It's quite simply getting to the point where role bans (especially from security, which you seemingly abuse the position of to mistreat people) and day bans are just not going to cut it. You've been given plenty of warnings already.

Come on. Your history has you on thin ice. When you come back, you either improve or you are gone. That's it.

It says in the rules I may be asked to stick to one account, which I already agreed to do. It doesn't say it is grounds for being banned

what happened today looks very, very bad

What looks bad? All you speak of is "feels this way", "looks like this", "this reeks of". Don't you see the problem? I either broke rules or I didn't. You're banning me on suspicion that I might break the rules again because of a previous ban, because you personally don't like the character I play? You're telling me you would punish anyone else for doing the same thing? I highly doubt that

You're trying to make it sound as bad as possible, but it doesn't matter because I didn't grief anyone or ruin the game for anyone and you can't point to a specific rule I broke. This kind of stuff only gives security something fun to pursue, and that is exactly what happened, but you choose to hate on me when stuff like this is completely normal for TGstation. What is the point of permabrig if you're going to ban anyone who breaks space law?

My history is irrelevant to this. You can't just bring up my history as a reason to ban me, you need an actual reason to ban me. My history means I deserve a harsher punishment when I do break the rules again. It would be reason to watch me closely, not ban me because you don't like the way I play. I actually refrain from taking things to far, yet I get banned exactly the same as when I broke the rules.

So how did you make the decision to ban me? What rule, precedence, etc.. And why 7 days, not 6 days or 8 days? Did that just "feel right" to you?

Edit: Look, I do understand how the account thing was suspicious, how my acts may have drawn attention to me. But I didn't go over the line. Killing a station pet is not griefing anyone, and nothing I did was out of ordinary for this server. I would know, I've played here a lot and much worse happens every round, and the rules are very specific about what is not allowed, everything else is part of what makes TGstation TGstation. You are clearly jumping to conclusions and I think that much is obvious to anyone reading this. You banned me for the unproven act of trying to hide my history, and for what amounts to not RPing, doing what I want without harming anyone. It would go a long way if you admitted that you assumed too much, and I don't blame you really, but how you chose to handle it is what makes it a terrible call on your part. What really sucks is that I am trying hard to stay within what is allowed on the server from now on, and I still get banned. If I wanted high RP I'd join an RP server. TGstation is about having fun.

The reason I chose to post about this and not any other ban is because even when I disagree they at least had a rule they believed I broke and a legit reason to ban me, even if they didn't agree with my reason. And if I know I messed up I have no problem admitting it. This ban has none of that. I feel like you were just in a bad mood and wanted to ban a greytider. I think all the evidence is there to support that. I think you can ask anyone the difference between tiding and griefing and they would say I definitely wasn't griefing.

What I did happens practically every round, whether it be me or somebody else, and I've never seen anyone complain or ahelp about it, and I know 100% that admins have watched me do it before. So yeah, you are just flat wrong IMHO.

I banned this account because I want him to stick to the main account. It has a large history on there and it is definitely relevant information given the short time spans between notes and punishments. These are things we do need to keep aware of since all of it patterned behaviour. Hence, I banned his main one because he shouldn't be mass killing station pets and stealing high value items as a nonantag if he wants to convince us he's learned anything, which is something he literally did do and is not a hypothetical.

Evading his notes is speculative, sure, but given his actual in-round behaviour, it is quite suspect and a safe bet to remove the additional accounts. Either way, this isn't a ban appeal so I'll just say this.

Killing station pets is in fact griefy behaviour and fully makes you valid, and is the classic example for baiting behaviour. Not the kind of thing to indulge in a day out from an overescalation ban.

This is not a ruling, just something to keep in mind: they are allowed to change their ckey, as long as they stick to it, and we can either transfer all the notes, or add a note saying "alt of X, check their notes before ruling" or whatever. It has been done before and there's nothing wrong with it, adds a little more trouble to the admin handling the issue, but if it's not a habit to constantly change ckeys and it was done for a good reason, it's worth it.
If you were suffering from harassment, it would definitely be a good idea to tell the admins. Using an alt ckey to escape from notes isn't okay, but if your intention was to escape harassment, next time you make a new ckey, tell the admins as soon as you connect with it.

NecromancerAnne wrote: Killing station pets is in fact griefy behaviour and fully makes you valid, and is the classic example for baiting behaviour.

Absolute BS. But I respect your opinion. This is the problem with admins in general. You all have different opinions of what kind of server you want to run, without actually paying attention to the kind of server you are effectively running. I'm supposed to literally read your minds or face the consequences. You follow me around because of my history while ignoring what is right in front of your eyes. You've created the cycle because you believe I'm the bad guy so you find reasons to make me the bad guy, and it becomes an endless cycle. And well, I have contributed also by making mistakes but once that happens you make it impossible to play the game without being harassed by admins for minor things that happen all the time. It is absolutely not my fault if you can't make it clear what constitutes normal behavior and fail to consistently enforce that.

Either way, killing a station pet is not traitor baiting, griefing, or anything. Unless you want to call breaking space law traitor baiting, in which case you are trying to run a high RP server, and the brig should only be used for real antags. Make up your damn mind already, update the rules, and maybe start holding literally 90% of the other players to the same standard you are holding me.

You still haven't stated a specific reason for banning me. Is it because of I had a new account, is it because I killed a pet, or what exactly? And you're seriously going to tell me you or any admin would punish somebody for those things? I know 100% that is not the case. Anyway I'm not really mad. The more I think about it this a problem with the system and you are probably justified based on what kind of server you think this should be. It's just a matter of bad communication between all admins, vague rules, bad enforcement. It's a serious problem when you've created double standards and rulings that don't match up with the general atmosphere of the server.

Anyways, the only rule this even remotely falls under is "don't be a dick". But nobody actually cares what I did, and it doesn't make the game worse for anyone. It makes the game funnier and more interesting if anything. So this is just a different opinion of what level of RP we want the server to be. That's a problem you guys should sort out. Or not. Whatever. I said everything I wanted to say so it's all in your hands now.

PetKilling was solidified as

"If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you."

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings

The headmin ruling on pet killing was in reference to IC validity and whether ahelping it was banbaiting. Not really relevant to getting banned for the act of killing the pet.

Malkraz wrote:The headmin ruling on pet killing was in reference to IC validity and whether ahelping it was banbaiting. Not really relevant to getting banned for the act of killing the pet.

Exactly, and I probably wouldn't complain if HoP killed me because at least that is slightly RP and funny. But I will say I don't see how killing somebody for that could ever be allowed(another example of inconsistency), especially when I would get banned for killing somebody that was say, following me around and slipping me constantly(actually preventing me from enjoying the game). But not to get off topic.

I do appreciate Cobby at least looking into it rather than just deciding based on feelings, which is my whole issue with this ruling to begin with

Also this is pretty much proof that killing Ian is allowed, since the admin explicitly said that you can get killed for it, which is allowing things to be resolved IC.

Edit: nevermind

It makes the game funnier and more interesting if anything.

THe first few times, not seven hundred times later

So this is just a different opinion of what level of RP we want the server to be. That's a problem you guys should sort out. Or not

This is what they did when they banned you

Malkraz wrote:The headmin ruling on pet killing was in reference to IC validity and whether ahelping it was banbaiting. Not really relevant to getting banned for the act of killing the pet.

This is correct. Pet killing on its own is not bannable behavior

oranges wrote:

It makes the game funnier and more interesting if anything.

THe first few times, not seven hundred times later

This is also correct to a degree. If you start conflict as a non-antag in a way that's not explicitly disallowed by the rules, generally we will look past it even if it is ahelped. However, if it becomes repeated behavior (like it gets ahelped 3 rounds in a row or something), that's a cue for an admin to step in.

One of our main tenets is "don't be a dick" which essentially means don't ruin the game for everybody else, as admins we abide by this and if your being a negative influence to other players and they don't like playing with you then well you get banned, in relation to that I absolutely hate this ban because in essence this player hasn't done anything that has affected anybody else, the suspicion that he is "actively hiding his past" is pure conjecture and a ban here was not needed especially if he agreed that he would go back to his main account, or even better simply place a note on his account denoting what it's previous ckey is and copy paste the notes over like we've done for dozens of other people in the past. I'm not going to say the player here did everything right if you do make a new account tell the admins immediately!, but the ban here is not proportionate for the crime not in the slightest.

Sometinyprick wrote:in relation to that I absolutely hate this ban because in essence this player hasn't done anything that has affected anybody else.

For fear of continuing the peanut posts with everyone else. It feels important to point out that the ban isn't just for quickly switching account after a ban was lifted, but rather continuing with a familiar behavior that earned them the original ban on a new account. In of itself it isn't against the rules to tide around the station; killing Ian or breaking into the bridge are part of the natural conflict of the station. However when you consider the player just came off a ban for killing a Captain in response to being caught breaking into their office, and with a new account the player is breaking into the bridge, killing pets, taking the Captain's laser, shooting the securitron in the armory; it's easy to draw a conclusion that nothing has been learned. It's down the Headmin team to decide if the ban merits enough to stick as it is, but at the very least it's not unusual for one of the accounts to be banned and the notes moved to the remaining one.

(edited because I forgot this is a complaint, not a appeal)

It now appears my IP was permabanned, so that's also great.

Full ahelp logs from: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 8/game.log

[2019-09-01 13:27:57.502] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): Hi. Do you know who zombiechill is? Because I do.
[2019-09-01 13:28:17.109] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Can I help you?
[2019-09-01 13:28:34.565] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): So, why exactly do you have a new account?
[2019-09-01 13:29:26.189] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): why not?
[2019-09-01 13:30:28.151] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): Well we'd rather you stick to your previous account so that you don't attempt to avoid the notes in your previous account. I'm pretty sure that is you, and you were banned literally yesterday.
-
- This doesn't s good, does it?
[2019-09-01 13:30:56.563] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Ok I can do that
[2019-09-01 13:32:03.539] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Can I do it next round?
[2019-09-01 13:32:19.447] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): I'd rather you explain first why you chose to make a new account. And be honest.
[2019-09-01 13:33:09.461] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): because people recognize my name and try to annoy me in OOC
[2019-09-01 13:34:12.199] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): idk it takes like 2 minutes to make one
[2019-09-01 13:34:42.928] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): so I just like to keep it fresh I guess
[2019-09-01 13:40:45.263] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Dorkenstein/(Rat Man): I really, really doubt that. You have a very spotty history and have a number of bans in an extremely short period of time between punishments and in fact, are continuing to exhibit behaviour you were previously warned about. Given this, I feel you're attempting to circumvent your history going forward, which we do not appreciate in the slightest. I'll be applying a permanent ban to this account and a week ban to your main account. Next time, you're being permanently banned on all accounts. The time for leniency is up..
[2019-09-01 13:41:16.881] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dorkenstein/(Rat Man)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): you wont last long as admin

Ban gets applied:

[2019-09-01 13:42:36.614] ADMINPRIVATE: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has created a permanent server ban for Dorkenstein. Reason: Another account of zombiechill. Joined the server and immediately began to behave in exactly the same way that got their original account banned the day prior. This is likely an attempt to circumvent punishment. I\'ve mirrored a week ban on their other account.

[2019-09-01 13:42:36.669] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=17108102086348759229004616510761105;ahelp=[0x210494c5];ahelp_action=ticket'>#1</A> resolved by <a href='?priv_msg=necromanceranne'>NecromancerAnne</a>/(Sheness Hollow)

Second ban applied:

[2019-09-01 13:45:37.037] ADMINPRIVATE: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has created a temporary 1 week server ban for Zombiechill. Reason: Joined the server the very next day from their previous ban on a brand new account, didn\'t tell any activate admins that he had changed his account, and immediately set about tiding across the station. To me, this feels like someone who is maliciously attempting to avoid punishment and hiding their history.

Dorkenstein wrote:It now appears my IP was permabanned, so that's also great.

FYI all bans are meant for the person, not the username. If you can access the server by changing say your IP/CID/Username then you should consider it an error on the admin's part and not play (the roles in which you were banned from).

Changing these will often be seen as evading and will net you a longer ban, whether that was your intention or not.

That was a muckup on my part. The problem should be fixed now and you should now be able to play on Zombiechill again.

This complaint is denied and will not be upheld.

Normally, we allow people to freely use alternate accounts with a clean history. This privilege is one of the many that is lost once someone starts accumulating a large negative history. In 64 connections you have managed to accumulate 8 bans and 3 warnings. This is beyond unusually high and treads into concerning territory. We expect that if you are being harassed, especially with a negative history, you should inform the admins beforehand so you can avoid issues like this. Anne was being inquisitive in ahelps rather than hostile while inquiring into your account swap in AdminPMs. The weekban you received on zombiechill was a reaction to you repeating your extreme tiding behaviour that had landed you a ban a day ago. Your situation is a result of these factors leading to you being punished by being forced onto one account and punished for your repeated excessive greytiding. NecromancerAnne was acting well within power and reason and punished you as a result of these factors.