A Borg Killing Borg
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- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:23 am
- Byond Username: Adminbane
A Borg Killing Borg
Your byond account: Adminbane
Your character name: Security Cyborg-110
Their character name: Standard Cyborg-15
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): No idea
Server and time: Bagil, ~11:40PM PST
Logs and/or screenshots:
Description of what happened: Not too much to say, there was a massive clusterfuck because of two player controlled magicarp and me as a xeno queen. They found me transformed me into various things, and I kept attacking them during, because I don't like being changed from a xenos queen into a monkey into a borg into a monkey etc. There was another carp as well, and due to a missfire me and him were borgs at the same time, I was Security Cyborg-110, he was Standard Cyborg-15. I attack the carps, and he beats me to near-death (unable to activate modules, static health indicator etc.).
Why they should be banned: I think it should be obvious. Killing another borg for trying to kill harmful creatures is a no-go. I understand I was attacking him when he was a carp, but once he became a borg he lost all right to randomly attack a fellow borg.
Your character name: Security Cyborg-110
Their character name: Standard Cyborg-15
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): No idea
Server and time: Bagil, ~11:40PM PST
Logs and/or screenshots:
Description of what happened: Not too much to say, there was a massive clusterfuck because of two player controlled magicarp and me as a xeno queen. They found me transformed me into various things, and I kept attacking them during, because I don't like being changed from a xenos queen into a monkey into a borg into a monkey etc. There was another carp as well, and due to a missfire me and him were borgs at the same time, I was Security Cyborg-110, he was Standard Cyborg-15. I attack the carps, and he beats me to near-death (unable to activate modules, static health indicator etc.).
Why they should be banned: I think it should be obvious. Killing another borg for trying to kill harmful creatures is a no-go. I understand I was attacking him when he was a carp, but once he became a borg he lost all right to randomly attack a fellow borg.
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- Github User
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
- Byond Username: Xxnoob
- Github Username: xxalpha
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Asimov doesn't prevent killing other cyborgs. You were trying to kill him before he became a cyborg, so he retaliated when he had the power to do so.
- Deitus
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:26 pm
- Byond Username: Deitus
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
edit: forgot rule 2, deleted
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- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:23 am
- Byond Username: Adminbane
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
I tried to kill a harmful creature while I was a cyborg. He killed me for trying to kill a harmful creature. That is, in my belief, fnr.Scott wrote:Asimov doesn't prevent killing other cyborgs. You were trying to kill him before he became a cyborg, so he retaliated when he had the power to do so.
- Tokiko2
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:18 am
- Byond Username: Tokiko1
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
I was the carp that got killed.
The entire situation was very confusing. In the other borgs defense, you did attack all the time even when you were no longer a xeno queen. We, the magicarps, went around and changed hostile NPC carps and xenos into harmless animals. Not exactly what I would call harmful to humans but I can understand you killing me as you were a xeno brain and none of your laws prevented you from killing us. There was also a good chance you didn't actually know that we were helping the crew either.
However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.
I did see you try to talk to the other borg though, but I am not sure if that was after your modules broke or before.
The entire situation was very confusing. In the other borgs defense, you did attack all the time even when you were no longer a xeno queen. We, the magicarps, went around and changed hostile NPC carps and xenos into harmless animals. Not exactly what I would call harmful to humans but I can understand you killing me as you were a xeno brain and none of your laws prevented you from killing us. There was also a good chance you didn't actually know that we were helping the crew either.
However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.
I did see you try to talk to the other borg though, but I am not sure if that was after your modules broke or before.
- imblyings
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
- Byond Username: Ausops
- Location: >using suit sensors
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.
ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.
ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.
ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.
- firecage
- Github User
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:22 pm
- Byond Username: Firecage
- Github Username: Firecage
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Just because X may be allowable, does not mean you can do Y.Not-Dorsidarf wrote:So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.
ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
I'm making the comparison because it makes no sense whatsoever for the presence of an NPC antag to make a nonantag allowed to murder another nonantag.firecage wrote:Just because X may be allowable, does not mean you can do Y.Not-Dorsidarf wrote:So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.
ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.
- imblyings
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
- Byond Username: Ausops
- Location: >using suit sensors
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
I should have explained better, when there's magicarps turning players into x y z mobs and causing fights to break out, i.e. fucking around, and fights break out between borgs that apparently carried on from fights before they were borgs, I take that to be a mitigating factor to what would have otherwise been a standard dayban.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
You could equally argue the borg was breaking Law 1 & 3 by not allowing bane to kill harmful creatures BEFORE killing him, as he threatened both humans and himself by doing so.
While you CAN kill borgs as asimov, you shouldn't be doing so when asimov prioritizes stopping harm and being the crew's Silicon Maid.
Everyone knows you lose your antag status once you get changed back to something that's non-antagonistic. I'd be equally upset if I got deconverted as Rev then killed by a Sec solely because of my previous actions.
A hectic round, with the presence of spess magic or not, should not give me an excuse to kill someone who I clearly know isn't antagonistic.
While you CAN kill borgs as asimov, you shouldn't be doing so when asimov prioritizes stopping harm and being the crew's Silicon Maid.
Everyone knows you lose your antag status once you get changed back to something that's non-antagonistic. I'd be equally upset if I got deconverted as Rev then killed by a Sec solely because of my previous actions.
A hectic round, with the presence of spess magic or not, should not give me an excuse to kill someone who I clearly know isn't antagonistic.
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- Github User
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
- Byond Username: Xxnoob
- Github Username: xxalpha
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Player controlled mobs are not inherently harmful.
- imblyings
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
- Byond Username: Ausops
- Location: >using suit sensors
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
fair enough.
The tricky part is getting them to reply to this thread.
The tricky part is getting them to reply to this thread.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
You attacked him before he was a borg, so he had every reason to presume you were a threat to his existence.
Bringing up he potentially broke law one by killing something harmful and preventing it to take out other harmful things is just being mad at a player for making a choice you don't like.
And seriously this should just be up to the player to decide in extreme clusterfuck situations.
You attacked him before he was a borg, so he had every reason to presume you were a threat to his existence.
Bringing up he potentially broke law one by killing something harmful and preventing it to take out other harmful things is just being mad at a player for making a choice you don't like.
And seriously this should just be up to the player to decide in extreme clusterfuck situations.
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
"Law 4 gangsters are harmful, I just watched that gangster be deconverted, now I arrest him for being harmful"CPTANT wrote:3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
You attacked him before he was a borg, so he had every reason to presume you were a threat to his existence.
Bringing up he potentially broke law one by killing something harmful and preventing it to take out other harmful things is just being mad at a player for making a choice you don't like.
And seriously this should just be up to the player to decide in extreme clusterfuck situations.
- Tokiko2
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:18 am
- Byond Username: Tokiko1
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
That example is not fitting because the xenoqueen borg did not stop killing when turned borg and nobody at the scene was human anyway, leaving them perfectly able to keep killing.Not-Dorsidarf wrote:"Law 4 gangsters are harmful, I just watched that gangster be deconverted, now I arrest him for being harmful"
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- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:34 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowlight213
- Github Username: Shadowlight213
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
I was under the assumption that turning humans non human was considered harming them, as now the AI may harm them. Similar to how an AI will stop you from uploading Onehuman due to law 1.Tokiko2 wrote: However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.
So basically, the borg was killing something that had harmed almost every human on station already, and would likely harm more if new crewmembers joined. I see no issue with their behavior.
- Tokiko2
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:18 am
- Byond Username: Tokiko1
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Is consented bolt of changing considered harm? Seems odd because I don't see borgs arresting roboticists for consented borging which seems pretty similar. Or consented injection of slime toxin, or hulking etc.palpatine213 wrote:I was under the assumption that turning humans non human was considered harming them, as now the AI may harm them. Similar to how an AI will stop you from uploading Onehuman due to law 1.Tokiko2 wrote: However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.
So basically, the borg was killing something that had harmed almost every human on station already, and would likely harm more if new crewmembers joined. I see no issue with their behavior.
You do bring up a good point however: Some of the xeno larvas and xenos that have been turned into other beings may have been humans for a split second and those probably did not want to be changed.
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Generally policy consensus is that consenting to be harmed is not actually harmful in the asimovian sense.
So people can volunteer to be genetic lab rats, get their brains ripped out for borging.
And its also why you don't have to give two shits about that greyshirt threatening to beat themselves if they're not let out or perma, or if some dumb cunt hacks open bolted door and runs into a room full of plasma.
So people can volunteer to be genetic lab rats, get their brains ripped out for borging.
And its also why you don't have to give two shits about that greyshirt threatening to beat themselves if they're not let out or perma, or if some dumb cunt hacks open bolted door and runs into a room full of plasma.
- Saegrimr
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
- Byond Username: Saegrimr
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Malk's got it right there, tangentially on the grounds of how silicons don't have to listen to suicide threats. So I guess borging and the likes are more... assisted suicide.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:23 am
- Byond Username: Adminbane
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
Sorry, busy with college here.
Once he turned into a borg I no longer tried to harm him. So it wasn't self defense. I solely attacked mobs that were not humans or borgs.
Once he turned into a borg I no longer tried to harm him. So it wasn't self defense. I solely attacked mobs that were not humans or borgs.
- imblyings
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
- Byond Username: Ausops
- Location: >using suit sensors
Re: A Borg Killing Borg
The last time the ckey in question played was over a week ago, a dayban will most likely never be noticed and a silicon jobban seems unwarranted given their lack of history, and will most likely be completely unnoticed by them. I'll add a note, something about attacking another borg rashly after magicarp shenanigans and that's pretty much all I can see happening ITT.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
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