[bgobandit] Astriker - banned for excessively expressing opinion and excessively arguing.

[Astriker]

BYOND account: Astriker
Character name: Flynn Nye.
Ban type: Server
Ban length: permanent
Ban reason: Rule 0: Has been warned many man many times about excessive and antagonistic ahelping of situations and hostile disregard of both admin rulings and the roleplay rules. In response to the final warning, goes on singulo and complains further; this is the opposite of ideal response to a "final warning" thus, you're done here (EDITED): specific other post removed as there is no way to definitely identify it) Thist ban (BanID #45207 was applied by bgobandit on 2020-01-13 )
Time ban was placed:4:41:00 2020-01-13
Server you were playing on when banned: Off-server comments but the main event happened on Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed:128052 Perma ban took place after I flamed in the singulo channel about admin rulings.
Your side of the story: Background: I found out about manuel 1-2 days after its release, I played on it, had a great time, came back the next day to it having a near full pop with tons of rule breaking people, seeing the difference upsets me because the RP was SO good when it first came out. So I started ahelping, and being told to handle it IC. Rinse and repeat until I see a chief engineer figure suddenly appear on the nuke ops shuttle while its docked with the syndicate base. I AHELP'd it because I was curious and BgoBandit replied with "admin shit"
I responded PM to-Admins: for what reason though/
PM to-Admins: its MRP
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: becaues I have to test something out as an admin
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: yes, I know, and I'm the administrator
PM to-Admins: what are you testing
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: things
PM to-Admins: what things
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: things that take longer the more you ask about them
PM to-Admins: tell me on the forums when you are done. im Astriker //I wanted to take this to the forums because I was curious
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: it's not your business

After this I ahelp about something that I THINK shouldent be happening on RP but it actually is fine(unrelated to original ahelp.)


PM to-Admins: (when you are done) can you also figure out why people immediately are saying nuke ops when they shouldent know what nuke ops are
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: The full list of MRP rules are here, nowhere does it say crew doesn't know what antags are https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_Rules
Admin PM from-Bgobandit: In fact what it does say is rather the opposite "When game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone
/end/
[Que delta alert as nuke ops blow the station up]
/next round/
Admin PM from-Hulkamania: Hey bud
PM to-Admins: What
Admin PM from-Hulkamania: I am getting none stop reports of you bothering admins, constantly ahelping shit, taking conversations onto the forums when they don't need to be, arguing with admins who tell you to drop something, trying to tell admins how the rules should be upheld.

You wanna comment on that?
PM to-Admins: I ahelp alot because there are a lot of LRPers on the station that break rules(but the admins always say deal with it IC. when it gets dealt with IC it just happens again) I wanted to take the discussion I had with Bgobandit to the forums because they get mad at me when I ask what they are doing on ahelp.#I ahelped it in the first place because why the fuck is a chief engineer on the nuke ops shuttle. Im sick of LRP not getting dealt with and ahelp is there to tell the admins about rulebreakers. but whenever there IS a rulebreak its always "hurr durr handle it in character". but the only way to STOP it by doing it in character is by permanently disabling them from doing anything. 100% of the time an admin says "handle it IC" to me, I handle it in IC and nothing ever gets done so yes thats why I do argue in the ahelps. and yes they got mad at me. so yes I do ask if they can take it to the forums now.

Admin PM from-Hulkamania: There's nothing wrong with asking a question in an ahelp, or wanting an admin to check in on something that you might think is suspicious, but when an administrator is giving you a final ruling on a situation (like telling you that something is fine) you should be dropping it.

If you think an administrator is lying to you or targeting you for abuse, you can make a complaint on the forum, but otherwise we have a rule 0 here that admin rulings in game are FINAL. You're already excessively freaking out on admins nearly every round that you're part of and playing junior police detective trying to rat out every person you don't think is roleplaying to your golden standards.

I recommend you either stop ahelping until you learn to be responsible, go to another server, or stay on your current path where I end up banning you because you can't stop clogging up the ticket feed from actual issues.

//This is where I saved the log to my PC so I dont have the rest of it but I think admins do//
I cant find it in the logs or im not using them properly. this is where I left off in my search: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... 020/01/12/


Take this with a grain of salt because it is from my memory and cannot be used as useful evidence its only here to provide brief information: From what I recall I said something along the lines of nothing then hulka sent me another message asking why I dident reply then he said something about a "final ruling" thats where I stopped replying and flamed on singulo, he replied with something along the lines of "why are you flaming in singulo" and I replied with something along the lines of "I thought thats the place where you go to flame about this kind of thing". I logged out for the night, came back today to check my notes to see how bad it was and turns out I am permabanned.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I feel its a bit excessive to permaban over arguing, overahelping. I think a better solution would be to ahelp mute me so I can no longer send many reports about non-rpers. The singulo is presented(to me atleast) as a place where you can freely express your opinion and flame, however I was wrong. In my comments I never included specific admin names. and just for reference since people seem to think that some comments on the singulo that arent me are me, my IDs were 887095, 2ab80c. Judge me how you will but I feel this is excessive. Im posting my "anonymous" id because people think that other people are me when they arent me.



*edit: im not going to argue about it I just wanted to give my side of the story and see if anything changes and get closure.

[bandit]

Hi. First of all, I appreciate your responding, and also appreciate your taking a day or so to cool off before doing so.

As housekeeping I'll post the rest of the ahelp with Hulkamania:

Spoiler:

ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): Making snarky posts on singulo is probably not the best thing to do when I'm trying to get a response out of you.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): You wanted me to respond?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): and plus thats the area where you are supposed to express your opinion.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): How about "I understand" or "I won't do that" or "I have been a knob I agree I will try to do better" or "I haven't done anything wrong fuck you admin" or anything at all that lets me get an idea of how you perceive this conversation and how you've recevied this information so I know what I need to do with you.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): I read what you said
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): and are you agreeing with what I said in that you will attempt to make a change in your future behavior, or are you just pissed off because I told you to stop doing something that you don't see a problem with?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): ok I guess rule 0 is is pretty important, yes I did argue about that and its bad but I like to figure out WHY something is happening before I accept it.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): Being informed is a very important thing to me and that is a problem sometimes
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): mainly because the people who I want the information out of are in power and dont want to give the information//threaten to punish me for trying to get it.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): If you think that an admin is being dishonest to you, then you can take it to the complaint forum. If you have an issue with something going on in the round, you can ahelp about it.
-
- But if an admin tells you that the conversation is done and you keep going, that is where the issue arises.
-
- You are not entitled to information if the admin doesn't think you need it, because it might have something to do with the ongoing round that you don't NEED to know about.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): Got it?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch)->Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn): Ok, I got it##PS- but then there would be a whole lot of forum complaints and then they will get mad at me there too.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Hulkamania/(Cash Blackburn)->Astriker/(Lazernyy Luch): If you think that you would be making so many complaints that you would clog up the entire forum, then you're probably the one in the wrong, not the admin.
-
- I'm giving you a note, but I fully intended to ban you for this incident. If this behavior keeps up you can expect the future conversation to be a LOT shorter.

Rule 0 is indeed very important and is usually invoked when someone is behaving as a persistent negative influence on the server. In this case, the perma was placed due to a simple violation of common sense:

Q: Someone has given me a come to Jesus talk about my past behavior, indicating that this is my final warning before being banned. I don't want to be banned. Should I:

A) See the error of my ways, shape up, and be an upstanding player of this game
B) Don't see what I did wrong, exactly, but do what the headmin says anyway because I don't want to get banned
C) Continue to argue my point, or
D) Continue to argue my point, while also immediately jumping on singulo for a round of fuck you shitty admin?

A is ideal. B is not ideal but at least improves the experience for everyone else. C is bad. D is pushing your luck.

As far as the specific situation here, I was testing out something related to logging with tools, the logging being related to another admin investigation (no, I'm not going to give any more details than this, the reason why should hopefully be obvious); the reason I selected equipment as CE was so I didn't have to spawn in separate tools, basically so it could all go faster. In retrospect I'm aware that the shuttle was not the ideal place to do this; however, the person requesting me to test it was on the shuttle at the time, and I didn't see that anyone else was around until it was too late, at which point I basically said to ignore me. I apologize if this 2-second lapse in immersion proved hard to overcome.

The point is, when I said "admin shit" I would hope that most people would interpret it to mean "administrative matters that the admins are aware of and sanction, none of which have any bearing on the current round, and none of which I'm at liberty to talk about even if it were any of your business, which it isn't," and basically as a sign to drop it. Instead of dropping it, you kept pushing, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing.

This has been the common thread of your behavior on Manuel, whether it is accepting admin rulings, accepting what they rules say, arguing with admins over what exactly the rules say and why they say it, etc. It's just another form of rules lawyering and it is to the point where you have accumulated three notes/bans in three days for this kind of behavior (I'm sure other Manuelmins can clarify on the excessive argumentativeness/justification for these notes):

Spoiler:

2020-01-10 01:50:27, plapatin, Manuel: Banned from the server for 1 second - hey man, just cool off for a bit. you're clearly pretty angry. this is the closest thing i had to a kick
2020-01-10 23:12:05, arianya, Manuel: Warned - Has a bad habit of over-enthusiastically ahelping every situation on Manuel - advised to relax a bit with the ahelping and engage more with things ICly.
2020-01-13 04:13:21, hulkamania, Manuel: Final Warning - Has continued to ahelp excessively, argue with administration about roleplaying standards and not accept administration rulings as adequate for any given situation. Reporting someone for breaking RP rules is fine, disagreeing with admins who report that they are not breaking those rules is not. (The note from the above ahelp)

In addition, as Hulk said, dealing with this relentless pushing sucks up admin time that can be used dealing with actual situations, and ironically makes those situations stick around longer. For instance, after this all happened, I immediately had to deal with several other players' ahelps, angry that I didn't notice some murderboning earlier. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of people on Manuel currently and enforcing MRP requires more attention than LRP, and the time it takes to explain over and over why the admins made a decision is time they're not spending doing anything else.

After consulting with the headmins/primary Manuel admins, and because this is substantially less salty than I was expecting, I'm going to lower this to 5 days (ending on the 17th). However, I do want to reiterate what Hulk said, that you are currently on very thin ice and that you would be well advised to re-read the MRP rules, familiarize yourself with what they actually do and do not say, accept that the admins are not obligated to tell you every single thing about everything involving everyone, on demand at all times, and generally slow your roll about 4000000%.

[Kingtrin]

thats where I stopped replying and flamed on singulo, he replied with something along the lines of "why are you flaming in singulo" and I replied with something along the lines of "I thought thats the place where you go to flame about this kind of thing"

As stated by hulk he did confirm this was still policy:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... lo#p492447

[bandit]

not sure how that doesn't qualify as peanut posting but

1) the hulk post you linked is specifically about complaining about events
2) this was a rule 0 ban

[peoplearestrange]

Sorry missed this one, Peanut part is now removed. I left the other part due to it bringing up something kinda relevant without opinion.

I believe this matter hows now be resolved though, so I'm locking the thread to prevent further outside argument. If the original poster wishes to add something please PM me or any admin and we shall unlock it for you.