/tg/Station 13

So, Here's The Tea.

On round 227574 I rolled midround Regal Rat.
I decided to do a friendly "take over" of the bridge, basically just ventcrawl there, get me gunk on the ground, make some rats, say hi to the passerbys. While doing this, I managed to meet a sec officer, the captain, and an AI, to all of which I communicated my lack of intent to do harm. I decide a bit afterwards to exit the bridge and make my way to the kitchen, in which I sat in the counter waiting for the chef to come back so that I could kindly ask for some cheese. While waiting, a rogue security officer came out of nowhere and two-shot me with a laser gun, killing me instantly.

So, that sucks! And I begin thinking about it. The regal rat isn't restriction excempt, according to the table in the rules, so surely that means there's no real reason to simply ignore escalation policy, right? So I send a ticket which Dunham kindly picks up:
After having this chat with them it seems clear to me that there's a disconnect between what is written in policy and how admins actually handle The Rat:
- According to policy, Regal Rat is not an antag, let alone a restriction exempt one. Therefore, there really is no reason to not follow escalation policy with it.
- In practice however, The Rat is too powerful for it to not be valid, with its army of mice being able to kill a person in seconds, and its miasma making any room inhospitable. So it seems admins tend to allow for it to be killed with no escalation, even if policy states they shouldn't.

So here is where a decision must be made.
If The Rat is to stay as an non-restriction-exempt non-antag, then enforce proper escalation policy with it.
If proper escalation shouldn't be followed when it comes to such a powerful boy, then make new policy that clarifies the exemption.

My personal opinion is that I don't really see why The Rat couldn't be an antag. When it comes to the nightmare, for example, there is absolutley no doubt about whether if its an antag or not, and whether if its restriction exempt or not. So like, make The Rat a restriction exempt antag, like the nightmare.

Rat kings already all act like antags anyway. A rat king sitting in the pipes 24/7 spamming gunk is one of the most unfun things to deal with. rat kings are too annoying be an actual antag rather than something meant to stay in maints and make a lair.

I actually roll my eyes when a rat king and its massive army breaks into the bridge or medbay and then gets mad at being unwanted.

Requiring to escalate against an actual giant rat monster would also be extremely silly.

Yeah I've seen this happen far too many times to count. And unfortunately it highly depends on who's the admin watching over the round on whether they look into it or ignore you for being a ghostrole. Personally I treat them the same way as you would a mind magnified monkey, if they're causing problems they're valid otherwise just leave them be.

Rats should not be unrestricted "I am allowed to murder anyone and everyone, sabotage atmos, and delaminate the engine" antagonists because that's stupid.
If that became what people use the role for we would have to make code changes to support that, because it is currently not considered an antagonist by the game at all and the only criteria to become one is "notice the ghost role exists and click on it first".

There's no selection system for the regal rat. There's no antag preferences for the regal rat. You can't even be banned from being a regal rat except for being banned from becoming any sapient animal.

It should just be authorised to follow its flavour text and experience the consequences of following said flavour text.
Similarly crew should be allowed to do whatever to it on the preexisting justification of it being enormous bad-smelling vermin, an intruder to the station, and unhygenic.

Sure, this sounds like a one-sided relationship where someone who wants to attempt diplomacy with the crew risks a single guy who doesn't want to play blasting them with a beam. That doesn't bother me at all because they are a free on-station ghost role. You get what you are voluntarily signing up for.
Plus that's realistic RP: this is the kind of environment a giant talking rat would realistically encounter, one containing murderous prejudice.

Rat king is both physically frail and requires someone else to willingly convert to their side which is apparently so rare that I literally never see anyone else bring it up.

It takes quite a bit of time to lick a beaker enough to the point where if someone drinks it all theyll overdose and get the rat king faction and even more time to find someone willing.

But im pretty sure their conversion to the rat king's fold is only a single line of red text that they could potentially miss or simply not take seriously after awhile because it does not give them any sustaining icon that proves their continued loyalty making rat king conversion an extreme exception to other "conversion/brainwashing" effects where its both voluntary and not taken seriously.



If rat kings were valid on sight them being able to convert people at all is kind of pointless since it cant defend itself and it kind of needs to expose itself in order to find people to willingly convert for it.



I think the last time i actually played rat king i was talking to security when a random assistant with a fire axe 3 shot me because i was in a typing menu and then when security tried to arrest the assistant they fucked off to go explore space ruins to avoid any repercussions, its already a terrible antag for talking to crew since your health pool is so small that talking to people is a death sentence.



Putting all of this together, rat king has mechanics that kind of imply its not meant to be entirely hostile to crew and wants to be around them but at the same time it literally cant play nice if it values its own existence, especially if its valid on sight.

its a man sized rat that fills the air with miasma, covers the floor with oil and vomit and has a army of rats that are quite lethal in large numbers, its perfectly valid to kill it

xzero314 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:30 pm Rat kings already all act like antags anyway.

This is because anyone is allowed to walk up to them and murder them on the spot for quite literally no reason at all. The rat kings that try to RP and do interesting things all die this way, leaving only the ones that hide in vents and spam miasma or build up armies to instantly crit any hapless assistant that draws near. Which then, of course, causes people to try and preemptively stop that from happening by killing rat kings on sight, and the whole thing goes in a cycle.
I bet if escalation actually applied to them then they'd become more than just a griefing role.

gameaddict07 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:57 pm

This is because anyone is allowed to walk up to them and murder them on the spot for quite literally no reason at all. The rat kings that try to RP and do interesting things all die this way, leaving only the ones that hide in vents and spam miasma or build up armies to instantly crit any hapless assistant that draws near. Which then, of course, causes people to try and preemptively stop that from happening by killing rat kings on sight, and the whole thing goes in a cycle.
I bet if escalation actually applied to them then they'd become more than just a griefing role.

From personal experience, correct, i cant do anything when im friendly and try to lick beakers for willing converts since I just die, but when i sit in maint and spam rats and roll for oil spill to slip people i actually get to play the game.

I think that Regal Rats should be classified as an antagonist.

By design, Regal Rats are a net negative towards the station and its crew. Aside from being able to 'recruit' willing personnel it does nothing to assist the station or its goals. It spreads disease when using one of its two cooldown abilities, the other ability being creating an army of innately hostile creatures.

It's a goblin role that can keep a few departments busy for a bit. An annoyance that can keep a few departments busy, but a small speedbump for anyone with a ranged weapon. By design it's a griefing role, if anything we should lean into it and embrace that part of the role. It's like being a friendly wizard, it just misses the point (in my opinion).

"Friendly takeover of the bridge". Your valid

I feel like I'm fine with them as they are - they shouldn't be considered a direct threat unless they leave maintenance and try to take over the station.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 12:00 pm "Friendly takeover of the bridge". Your valid

Hm? What's wrong with my valid?

Hard valids on MRP suck. It's a big horrible unfriendly rat that spreads stink, causes trouble, and has a dangerous gang of killer mice. Roleplay appropriately.

If the captain is negotiating cheese rights and johnny sec walks up and blasts it wordlessly, let the captain drum him outta the force for insubordination or whatever he feels like. If the rat is just hanging around in the open it's taking its life in its own hands as a pest though.

To me, setting up in someone's department, or taking over a high security area leaves you at the mercy of the respective crew or command. I feel like it is currently fine as is. Regal Rats aren't KOS, but they have a tightrope to walk where if they're too annoying/destructive, then the crew will retaliate and slaughter them to a rat. Sometimes a rat that is being tolerated will randomly get gunned down by Randy Redshirt the validhunter sec officer but that can be solved via IC means of the captain/hos demoting them and the rat king being revived via a lazarus (can doctors to the pet surgery on rat kings?)

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 9:43 am(can doctors to the pet surgery on rat kings?)

Yes, on pretty much any organic "basic mob" (which is most but not all mobs at the moment)

We believe that the flavour text of rats sets the expectation of the role to be a minor nuisance, and as a minor nuisance in these smaller roles there should be an expectation that you're going to live a short life. we believe that if the regal rat is doing **literally** nothing to bother anyone, then yes, it is inappropriate to just walk up and kill them for no reason. however, their presence is often a nuisance. they create miasma, spoil food, break into restricted areas and are capable of killing people if they have a rat army. if they are playing with these mechanics, then it's suitable to fight them, because they are intended to be a nuisance.