Armory re-mapping and autorifle removal

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Doing that is on my round start to do list along side ordering some loyalty firing pins and a plasma cutter from RnD.

[Zilenan91]

They're quite useful during Gang as well.

[Gun Hog]

Doing that is on my round start to do list along side ordering some loyalty firing pins and a plasma cutter from RnD.

It would make you my favorite HoS if you supported Science enough to let us do that. I will never forget the day Xhuis removed autorifles from the armory, and the Comdom with his Sec buddies stormed cargo to get autorifles, ignoring me when I, as the RD, told them that I had SABR guns, AND that I could provide alt ammo for their weak little pop-rifles.

To this day, it utterly baffles me how some Sec players absolutely refuse to get or even ask Science for upgrades or even ammo.

[CPTANT]

Doing that is on my round start to do list along side ordering some loyalty firing pins and a plasma cutter from RnD.

It would make you my favorite HoS if you supported Science enough to let us do that. I will never forget the day Xhuis removed autorifles from the armory, and the Comdom with his Sec buddies stormed cargo to get autorifles, ignoring me when I, as the RD, told them that I had SABR guns, AND that I could provide alt ammo for their weak little pop-rifles.

To this day, it utterly baffles me how some Sec players absolutely refuse to get or even ask Science for upgrades or even ammo.

getting stuff from science as sec requires a couple of things:

1. Someone to actually be there.
2. someone got research levels up
3. there is enough material to print stuff
4. The scientists to not be assholes.

[Zilenan91]

I tend to have trouble with number four. I've had RDs start trying to baton me to death for asking for better drills as a miner. All I'm gonna say is any number of people trying to fight miners in melee is a bad idea.

[Malkevin]

research is second only to medbay for being a den of scum and villainy when you have actual need to break the big guns out.

[Zilenan91]

Oh yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've been syringed by chemists for trying to self serve myself when there's a horrible disease walking around.

[Gun Hog]

Perhaps you should come to the desk and ask, and not break into places and take stuff as if you were a clown?

[lumipharon]

I tend to react violently to people breaking into R&D because it takes 5 seconds for a chucklefuck to print two boh's and fuck the entire station.
Seriously, the amount of time people have done this is mind numbingly retarded.

Edit: And even if it's a non antag, if BoH's get out into the public, all an antag needs to do is kill a person or two, to secure two and do the same thing.
If Macros have shown us anything, people will happy gib themselves to fuck people over.

[Gun Hog]

And even if it's a non antag, if BoH's get out into the public, all an antag needs to do is kill a person or two, to secure two and do the same thing.
If Macros have shown us anything, people will happy gib themselves to fuck people over.

I can confirm that I am guilty of this behavior, and Paprika's nerf to ensure the attacker is gibbed in a BoH singularity has not stopped me doing it. (Only stopped me doing it more than ONCE) It is immensely satisfying, especially if I manage to take out major infrastructure such as the gravity generator, or a large group of people, especially the shuttle.

I try to be nice and calm as much as I can as RD. At first, I will talk to the intruder and tell him to leave. Next, I will simply try to drag him outside. If he refuses, then I will bring out the baton. If I have not been outrobusted at this point, then I will escalate using whatever items I have on me at the time. The RD console serves three machines, and can only do one task at a time. It is annoying enough to try and use it when another Scientist is doing the same - I do not need to put up with the dang Clown thinking he is entitled to everything holding up my department as well.

[Zilenan91]

Perhaps you should come to the desk and ask, and not break into places and take stuff as if you were a clown?

Oh man it's not like I walk in there with a spear in my gut every other round, bleeding out.

[TheNightingale]

A reminder that now the tactical gear section is gone on Box, Security doesn't have access to bulletproof armour or helmets either. We need a revert on the removal or something.

[lumipharon]

There are pr(s) up to fix the armoury.

[Steelpoint]

Not anymore.

I'll look into a PR to revert the armouy to its pre-rifle state, since unless we re add the rifles (I ain't going into that) then there's no reason for the armoury to not return to its original state.

[onleavedontatme]

As much shit as I gave the rifles it's still a guilty pleasure using them on meta. I'm gonna miss having 300 rounds in my bag as HoS.

[TheNightingale]

On the topic of rifles, whenever I'm carrying one there's a "toggle fire mode" button in the top-left, which doesn't seem to do anything. Is it supposed to be burst-fire or something?

[DaemonBomb]

On the topic of rifles, whenever I'm carrying one there's a "toggle fire mode" button in the top-left, which doesn't seem to do anything. Is it supposed to be burst-fire or something?

They used to, it got removed cause balance.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Doing that is on my round start to do list along side ordering some loyalty firing pins and a plasma cutter from RnD.

It would make you my favorite HoS if you supported Science enough to let us do that. I will never forget the day Xhuis removed autorifles from the armory, and the Comdom with his Sec buddies stormed cargo to get autorifles, ignoring me when I, as the RD, told them that I had SABR guns, AND that I could provide alt ammo for their weak little pop-rifles.

To this day, it utterly baffles me how some Sec players absolutely refuse to get or even ask Science for upgrades or even ammo.

getting stuff from science as sec requires a couple of things:

1. Someone to actually be there.
2. someone got research levels up
3. there is enough material to print stuff
4. The scientists to not be assholes.

i like to get stun revolvers if i can, they're boss.

[John_Oxford]

Wouldn't it be more logical just to make the sec rifles harder to get to?

Requiring a Captain and HOS to swipe their ID at the same time would limit how often they get opened.

Because in the case of nuke ops (When auto-rifles are met with a even combat threat) the captain would most likely be dead already.

A good way to nerf something, but keep it the same, is to make it unavalible when its needed the most - Coder 101

[TheNightingale]

They're already hard to get to - you need Armory access for the tactical gear button, so you can't just hack in.

[Tornadium]

This change makes literally no difference because most sec players now immediately order rifles at round start on box.

[CPTANT]

This change makes literally no difference because most sec players now immediately order rifles at round start on box.

Well I would say its a good thing that cargo actually has something to do again.

[lumipharon]

This change makes literally no difference because most sec players now immediately order rifles at round start on box.

Wew lad, it's exactly what I said should be the case from the start, thanks for reaffirming my position.

[Tornadium]

Your position is that the players want the rifles and so they order them every round?

That's kinda pretty self explanatory right?

[TechnoAlchemist]

The change makes a significant difference in low pop when there is very little sec, so when the armory gets looted less firepower is stolen.

[lumipharon]

Your position is that the players want the rifles and so they order them every round?

That's kinda pretty self explanatory right?

My position was that if people wanted the rifles they could order them from cargo.
Steel said making them cargo only was "as good as removing them from the game".

But if people are really ordering them every round as sec, that doesn't seem to be the case, does it?

[Steelpoint]

Again, your position on that Lumi makes it just as easy to justify removing all the weapons from the armoury and making them only orderable from cargo.

[lumipharon]

Uwot?

Armoury needs weapons. Your weapons made the total amount of KILL in the armoury far higher then it needed to be.
If sec wants additionalKILL, then they can talk to cargo and order more guns.

It's as simple as that.

[Steelpoint]

Define additional kill?

With the rifles you had between 15 to 20 rounds to a magazine before you ran out of bullets forever, whereas with Lasers you have 12 rounds per rifle and then you can recharge it for a additional 12 rounds.

On a pure logistical examination the Laser Rifles trump the Auto Rifles due to the fact they can be recharged indefinitely, easy and quickly. Whereas the Rifles rely on physical ammo that would be expensive to order and maintain en mass.

If you were to examine the two guns based only, and only, on the ammo they have at the time and no future ammo they might have then the Rifles would win out with a additional 3 to 8 more rounds. Until you realise your out of ammo for the Auto Rifle.

Edit: Also the idea of 'taking all the spare mags from the alt guns' holds no weight as its just as easy to take all the spare Laser Rifles and Energy Guns in your backpack. The only real benfit of taking the two extra Mags from the guns is that they can fit in smaller spaces, but otherwise its not dissimilar to carrying the extra Lasers, which can all also be recharged.

[Steelpoint]

What about this.

What if I re add the Auto Rifles.....

But make them start with Rubber Bullets only, dealing around 5 brute damage and dealing 33 Stamina Damage, give or take.

There might be one lethal mag in the armoury locker but that's it.

[lumipharon]

Because it's not a fucking binary choice.

You dont walk into the armoury and go "hm, ballistics or energy weapons?"
You take what's available.

1 steelrifle + 2 spare mags is the same damage as 3 eguns, while taking up less space. Additional space can be filled with energy weapons, or you can just generally spread guns between more people.
a spare mag is a tiny item. You can SEVEN of them in the space of one egun. You can print these things from R&D cheaply round start, or just ammo boxes from an autolathe.

If you remove these feature you're just snowflaking it like I said when you were first adding them.

[Steelpoint]

>ignoring absolutely everything I've been saying

Good job Lumi.

I said that I intended, even before my balance PR and the revert PR, to significantly increase the RnD costs of the mags as well as to change the ammo type away from 9mm so auto lathe ammo can't be used.

In fact I still intend to do this, I'm just waiting on my current armoury PR.

--

The only other alternative I can think of is to make the magazines built into the gun and that you have to manually load each individual bullet into the gun, but I think that's stupid and defeats the purpose of a reloadable ballistic gun.

Also as I said Lumi, while its great you can nab the two extra mag's from the other guns (assuming no one else is going to use the guns) your still overall going to run out of ammo fast and have no easy way to replace your ammo.

[lumipharon]

And as I said in my post, and repeatly when you suggested this when first adding the guns, adding all this special snowflake shit (manually loadin bullets? Can't make ammo boxes like almost every other bullet in the game?) to your gun that makes if different from every other gun imaginable is a clear sign you have a product you're simply trying to shoehorn into the game.

[Steelpoint]

Well, most guns you can't make ammo boxes for.

The only ammo box you can produce from a autolathe is 9mm ammo and .45 speed loaders, at least last time I checked.

Most advance syndi guns use non-9mm ammo, barring the Sketchin and the C20r I think.

[lumipharon]

The only guns that you can't make ammo for are: deagle, SAW, C-90 and gyrojet.
Gyro jet and deagle are both badmin/wiz only, c-90 was added after the autolathe update, not sure about the SAW.

Edit: also the bolt action, which uses the same ammo as the saw, but again is badmin/wiz only.

[Steelpoint]

Considering that I don't see how its snowflake to not have easy to produce ammo from a autolathe.

Nuke Op weapons are already a uncommon sight, and around half of the bullet based weapons they use can't get ammo from a Auto Lathe, Deagles and Gyrojet's are also admin only and thus never see any need to get ammo from cargo.

The only on station weapons you can produce ammo for, at round start, are Shotguns and the Detective's Revolver.

So again, no really snowflake when the only weapons you can produce ammo for, that are not shotguns, are antagonist only or are a result of high level research.

[Steelpoint]

Also why would you give a shit if its slightly snow flake?

If its a meaningful balance change then so be it, why does it being unique or different automaticly make it a bad thing?

Its not like we're unaccustomed to unique features that can be construed as snowflake if you want to make it a negative point.

----

If the Auto Rifles were changed to the following.

• Magazine reduced to 15 rounds per mag
• Default ammo for the Rifle are Rubber Bullets, dealing little to no damage but around 33 stamina damage
• Lethal ammo, if any, is kept in a locked and secured locker in the armoury.
• Additional magazines, lethal or otherwise, cost around 40 points from cargo
• Laser Rifle is buffed to hold 15 rounds per charge.

Then would the Rifles really be overpowered.

Throw in a retro looking gun sprite and bam, we've got it. Or just use the older Bay gun sprites I used.

[lumipharon]

Because again, you're trying to shoe horn in your pet gun, by making any change possible - you've lost perspective bro.

If you make it stam gun, then it's a functionally inferior disabler. (disabler having more shots and goes through windows, while doing 33/34 stam damage)
Locking lethal ammo in the armoury is pointless because if you can get into the armoury, then purely by the presence of a single gun, you can open the locker.
40 points is the same cost as like, 6 lasers. Pretty sure 3 lasers are 15 points actually (or maybe 2 lasers). That's just to the point of absurdity.
Buffing lasers is a completely seperate matter.

[Jacquerel]

It does seem weird to jump through so many hoops to get the gun in, to the extent that it doesn't resemble your original idea at all, when the much easier alternative is just to not have a gun that self-evidently wasn't a good idea in the first place.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Standard ballistic rifles are unnecessary and you should really stop pushing for them to be in the armory so hard. They're fine in cargo.

[onleavedontatme]

I'm gonna make autorifles back slot laser weapons with rechargeable magazines and sneak a couple of them back into the armory. Im not sure theyd really qualify as autorifles anymore but I like the sprite and steelpoint seems willing to completley redo them anyway.

And then move the three normal laserguns out of the armory and put them ???

Maybe RD/CMO/CE so not every fucking gun is in single room.

[Steelpoint]

More laser weapons does not solve or address the issues I presented when I put up the Auto Rifles.

Also I must question the utility of a mag based Laser that takes up your back slot, not when you can just carry multiple Laser Rifles in your backpack.

[CPTANT]

More laser weapons does not solve or address the issues I presented when I put up the Auto Rifles.

Also I must question the utility of a mag based Laser that takes up your back slot, not when you can just carry multiple Laser Rifles in your backpack.

The issues you put up against laser rifles are non-issues, because e-swords/shields and other reflection are BALANCED with the idea that security uses laser weapons.

What is the point of buying a 16TC energy shield if sec ballistics just shoot through anyway?

[Steelpoint]

I've discussed at length how the most common ways for Ops to lose is simply due to them running out of ammo due to poor inventory management or from facing too many bodies being thrown at them.

I don't expect a average Security Officer to always win, or have at least a 50% chance of, against a Nuke Op. But I also don't want it to be a very one sided fight.

So for the sake of information I mocked up some test to show the state of individual sec vs individual ops.

Eh, spolied due to it being massive.

Spoiler:

------------------------
Pre-Note

So lets assume the following equipment, with minor liberties taken.

The Operative has, aside from their standard hardsuit, a C20r SMG and a Energy Shield.

The Officer has standard Sec gear, including a Stun Baton, Pepper Spray, Flash, One Flashbang and a Taser.

We'll also test out how the Laser Rifle and the Auto Rifles preform on this Op.

---------
Test 1: Op Attacks Officer

This first test will show how quickly a single Op can kill a single Officer.

Now to pre note the C20r deals 20 damage per hit with around 50 stamina damage per rounds.

To note, armour offers around 15% protection to bullets, so the bullets deal only 17 damage and not 20.

C20r Fires In 2rd Burst!

First two rounds deal 37 damage AND stun the Officer

Two more bursts knocks the Officer into critical!

So from this we can see it is very easy for a Op to kill a Officer, a single burst from their weaker SMG will stun a Officer and that is essentially death. The more powerful M90 will still crit the Officer in a three round burst.

In conclusion, it is very easy for a Op to kill a Officer, even if only a single bullet hits its mark it will inflict around 50 stamina damage on the target.

---------
Test 2: Officer Attacks Op

So in this scenario we'll test out all weapons the Officer would have on them.

• Stun Baton: Only weapon that reliably works even against the shield! Only problem is getting into melee with someone who's bullets can slow down and stun you at range. Risky to use and ineffective against multiple Ops.
• Flash: Op helms and helmet are immune to Flashs.
• Pepper Spray: Same as above, immune to pepper spray.
• Flash Bang: Flashbang will only stun if the Op is standing directly on top of the Flashbang as it detonates. You cannot throw the flashbang underneath the Op directly as hitting the Op throws the bang backwards, they have to walk onto it.
• Taser: As noted the Eshield blocks all projectiles with a 100% certainty. After firing five rounds I was hit with my own shots twice, but this is RNG.

So overall the only way this Officer can fight the Op is if they use a Stun Baton or get really lucky with a Flashbang.

The odds of the officer winning are very low, and in my opinion are too low. Meaning there's not much of a effective fighting force on station.

Also the HoS and Captain don't fare any better, their weapons are all energy based.

--------

Test 3: Laser versus Ballistic Rifle

The final test.

The Laser already preforms poorly, as all its shots are deflected.

So how does the Rifle preform?

Rifle bullets can bypass the Energy Shield at a 50% rate. In addition the Rifle's bullets will only deal 10 damage per hit, meaning you require around ten hits to crit a Op.

During my test it took me 18 bullets to crit the Op, of which eight bullets were blocked. From the same math formula used during the armour percentage from RNG situation we can tell that on average it will requires around 20 bullets, or one mag, to crit a single Op.

--------

Final Thoughts

I understand not wanting combat between Security and Ops, for example, to not be heavily weighted towards Sec. But right now Auto Rifles are/were the only reliable way to attack a Op who has a energy shield, and even then its still sub par.

The Energy Shield effectively shuts down 100% of Security's ranged attack options, leaving you with a Stun Baton and maybe a clutch Flashbang if the Op walks onto it.

I want Security, and by extension the Captain, to be able to offer at least some form of resistance to Ops, except of a Token resistance of firing Lasers that come back to hit you. But as it stands unless Sec orders in Rifles then all they can do is shield the Captain and hope for the best.

Fortunatly right now Op win rates are at around 50% overall, though this is 100% on low pop and still around 30% to 50% on higher pop. However as discussed I still think, and this comes from other people, that Ops lose due to manpower overwhelming them or straight up incompetence.

If we're perfectly fine with Sec being ineffectual against Ops then sure, I just dislike how most of your inventory is worthless.

[callanrockslol]

If eshields are so fucked why not nerf them instead of make another fucking weapon entirely.

[Steelpoint]

Because I think a 50/50 chance of being stunned by a Taser is going to piss more people off than a Ballistic Rifle that requires ten shots to crit and has a 50/50 chance of being deflected.

If I was to make eshields only block on a 50% rate, that would be far more of a nerf than Auto Rifles ever will be.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Steelpoint for all you scream about people being objectively wrong and lying to try and get your code baby removed...

I dunno, that last big post makes all that seem a bit hypocritical.

[Steelpoint]

Am I wrong?

If I did lie, or misrepresent something, then please point it out.

Everything I said is factually correct, as far as I can tell.

You should not just say "oh how hypocritical" with a leading sentence without actually stating what is wrong or I'm lying about.

But tell me, do you think a uncommon Projectile weapon (that's reliant on hard to get ammo) that has a 50% chance to bypass shields is better than nerfing the shields so that ANY ranged attack has a 50% chance to bypass it?

[Jacquerel]

If you honestly think that shields are a problem, nerfing shields should definitely be the solution rather than adding a new weapon.
Nerfing shields only affects the users of shields (you could even put different changes for different projectile types if you really wanted, though that would end up a pain in the ass later), adding a new weapon effects every roundtype regardless of whether having e-shields is even possible in them.

[Steelpoint]

Also I can't really nerf shields due to it being hard coded or something beyond my capabilities.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I
I understand not wanting combat between Security and Ops, for example, to not be heavily weighted towards Sec. But right now Auto Rifles are/were the only reliable way to attack a Op who has a energy shield <- falsehood/inaccuracy 1. Also, there was nothing wrong with eshields for literally years. People just bumrushed, disarmed, stunprodded/stunbatoned (and now they can telebaton too) the ops until they dropped it., and even then its still sub par. Good thing too, sec had 4 of them for free roundstart and the ops paid over 10% of their supplies for this piece of kit!

The Energy Shield effectively shuts down 100% of Security's ranged attack options, leaving you with a Stun Baton and maybe a clutch Flashbang if the Op walks onto it. <- Falsehood/inaccuraccy 2 And also the detective's pistol, or a riot shotgun (Beanbag rounds are an instant knockdown for 1/2 a second, plenty of time to rush his shield! Slug rounds are, I believe, a 3-hit down, too), or possibly even stun revolvers (Are their shots energy or ballistic, I don't remember. Either way, the station can make them from scratch in the time between ";HALP NUKE OPS BORG IN CORE" and the nuke ops getting the disk, assuming they haven't stuck 2 mech tasers in the DA already.

I want Security, and by extension the Captain, to be able to offer at least some form of resistance to Ops, except of a Token resistance of firing Lasers that come back to hit you. But as it stands unless Sec orders in Rifles then all they can do is shield the Captain and hope for the best. Lie/reassertion of a previous falsehood.inaccuracy 3. This is only true of unless, like most op teams, the ops didn't bring a/multiples of a super-expensive piece of kit, or sec don't abandon their "Must be sniper" pride, act like assistants and bumrush the ops with batons, which is almost 100% effective if you get tactical and use the old corner stunbaton.

Fortunatly right now Op win rates are at around 50% overall, though this is 100% on low pop and still around 30% to 50% on higher pop. However as discussed I still think, and this comes from other people, that Ops lose due to manpower overwhelming them or straight up incompetence. Exactly like when you added them! I guess they can't be such saviours of security against the evil commie eshield menace if they don't make sec win more against ops. In any case, the point is that these only a justification if the ops buy multiple eshields (Or give a guy both, for 39+ TCs), which they rarely do now that the combo they were proposed to deal with in the first place (Eshield Nodrop FUCK YOU ops) is gone.

If we're perfectly fine with Sec being ineffectual against Ops Except for all the counters they have access to and the fact that ops don't always take the piece of kit you want to add a gun to every single round to add an extra counterthen sure, I just dislike how most of your inventory is worthless.